Would anyone prefer spellcasting to stay as it is?

[RFisher]

We refer to it as outdated or outmoded b/c, to us, it is.

When I played a 2e game after some years of playing all those non-D&D games with different magic systems, I found--much to my surprise I might add--the D&D spell system to be fresh & innovative.

"Wow! I don't have to roll to see if I successfully cast the spell or not? Wow! Where has this game been the last five years? Oh, yeah...on my shelf."

Not to criticize anyone for expressing their feelings about the system. Just expressing my own.

 

[ZombieButch]

That's a false tradeoff. The reality is that if your party's spellcasters run out of spells, the whole group camps for the night. Even if you just got up, and been in three fights that each lasted less than a minute. The 4E designers really wanted to put an end to the adventurer's typical 1 hour workday.

Sure, there are cases where the plot prevents camping. But pressing on, completely unable to meaningfully contribute... that's not really that fun for the wizard player.

This, right here, gets straight to the heart of the matter as far as I'm concerned. I remember playing a magic-user (back in the days when we had magic-users instead of wizards and sorcerers, and yes, that does make me feel old, thanks for asking!) and particularly at low levels it stunk. You'd either camp every other encounter or run around either throwing daggers away (because you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with one) or pulling out the pom-poms to cheer on the guys who could actually get something done.

3rd edition made it better for spellcasters, but, based on the reactions of my players at least, didn't really make it great. They didn't really get that experience til we switched to other game systems that didn't rely on Vancian-style magic.

I'll be the first to admit I was initially skeptical about 4th edition, but everything I'm hearing so far is going a long way towards converting me.

 

[Cadfan]

I actually wouldn't mind giving spellcasters a bit of the Warblade's system. They have a suite of combat magic they can draw upon, and the only way they can replenish it mid combat is to spend a round gathering and focusing arcane power. Then there could be a second system for larger magic that takes place out of combat.

My only concern about what we seem to be getting is that, if wizards all get an at will "blast 'em" ability, wizards will start looking very much the same. I'm sure attentive designers can avoid that, however.

 

[WhatGravitas]

My only concern about what we seem to be getting is that, if wizards all get an at will "blast 'em" ability, wizards will start looking very much the same. I'm sure attentive designers can avoid that, however.

Same here - I really hope they give a small selection of different at will-abilities, perhaps one or two for each school of magic - it'd make school specialization MORE than "one extra spell per level", much more interesting...

Cheers, LT.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Do we even know enough about the 4E magical system is terms of game mechanics yet to really worry about this?

And it is a good things for magic users to remain competitive with the martial classes.

 

[Nebulous]

Do we even know enough about the 4E magical system is terms of game mechanics yet to really worry about this?

And it is a good things for magic users to remain competitive with the martial classes.

no, not at all, but it's quite a lot of fun to speculate.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I do like Vancian magic. I like that the wizard can swing from a utility caster to a blaster by his selection of prepared spells (unlike the sorcerer, who is essentially stuck in his niche once he picks his spells). I like the flavor of a wizard searching for books and scrolls to add to his tome of knowledge. I like that the most powerful of a wizard's abilities are limited to a few uses per day, so that he isn't constantly overshadowing other members of the party. I like that the wizard is frail, so that it encourages team play.

My take on the per encounter / at will abilities of the wizard is that they could preserve the flavour of preparing spells from a book. You just have to redefine what a prepared spell is.

You could start the day by memorizing a Zardoz's Explosive Bowels (per encounter ability), Zardoz's Force Blast (At Will), and Fireball (per day). At the next day, you could opt to keep Explosive Bowels, but swap out the Force Blast for a Shocking Grasp.

The wizard is still a weak, low hp character that adds spells to books and prepares them in advance. The difference is that he does not 'forget' the spells. He just has some other arbitrary reason he cannot perpetually use some of those abilities.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[ProtoClone]

Out of pure curiosity, since it has already been confirmed that spellcasting will undergo serious changes, is there anyone who is less enthusiastic about it?

Sure, it may not be so exciting to run out of spells and remain useless until the next nap, but here are some points to consider:

- Wizards possess great power, way beyond fighter-type classes, at least that's the way I see it. The tradeoff is having limited use of it. Giving the wizard some form of unlimited casting, without breaking the game, has to be accompanied either by some weakening of spells or massive reduction of powerful spell uses per-day/encounter/whatever or something like that. It would just ruin the experience for me, giving up Meteor Swarms of Doom for the ability to fling around magic missiles at will.

- Having to think and plan ahead is part of the challenge, and sounds particularly in character for a wizard. Deciding whether to pull out the "ace in the sleeve" now, or wait in case something even more dreadful awaits in the next room, is a lot more interesting IMHO than knowing you can fire at will just because it will all be ready again for the next fight.

- Logically, how can a wizard just walk around all day shooting spells? Doesn't he get tired? It also sounds a little broken... Like having a crossbow that doesn't need darts... (And always hits a-la magic missile? Requires only touch attacks?) Doesn't sound very fun at all.

- I just can't imagine a wizard without the stereotypical endless memorization and studying and the complete dependence on his spell-book. Dragonlance's Raistlin comes to mind...

So, WOTC are definitely slaying a holy cow here as far as I'm considered. Of course I do not yet know any particular details, just rumors and speculations, but so far this is the only thing that's been bothering me. Any opinions?

I am interested in seeing a change to the system. I know they probably wouldn't change completly because too many people are used to how it is. But to make Wizards more useful at lower lvls would be great. I would also like to see a working system for co-op casting.

 

[Visceris]

I prefer spell casting to me like Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, but bar that I like it how it is.

 

[GreatLemur]

Easy. Wizards shape an arcane pattern, fill it with magical energy, and lock that in their mind/aura/personal force field/whathaveyou. The little bit during casting is simply a trigger that releases that stored-up energy through the pattern, creating a spell effect. Once it is release, it is gone, pattern and energy. The "Spells per Day" limit is the number of charged patterns a wizard can store in his mind/aura. That's why it goes up with level and Intelligence...they simply get better at it.

This explaination actually works pretty well for me, and it's the one I use in my own games. But I still haven't found a decent excuse for why a Wizard can only prepare spells once per day.

Setting aside the fact that a Wizard who's used up all his daily spells is not fatigued, exhausted, or otherwise drained in any mechanically-represented fashion, I can certainly buy that there's some hard limit on how many spells a given Wizard can prepare without resting. What I can't get past is the idea that he has to prepare all his daily spells in the morning, in a single session. Wouldn't it be logical to leave a few slots empty in case some utility spells (things like levitation or comprehend languages) are needed later on? Sure, he'd have to do the whole sit-down-with-the-spellbook-and-meditate bit all over again, but it shouldn't take nearly as long as preparing his whole set.

And even if precasting sounds right for Wizards, it's absolute murder to justify for Clerics and Druids. "Oh mighty Pelor, if it be your will, please grant me the boons of bless, cause fear, and summon monster I some time later today, allowing as well the option that I might convert them into cure spells."

Yeah but this is what I don't fully understand. You played a ton of other systems and you liked them better... Then why do you want D&D to turn into one of them? Can't you just keep playing them?

There's a lot more to D&D than its spell system. Even setting aside the system itself, it's got tremendous amounts of official and third-party support, as well as a tremendous population of existing players. If I like one thing about GURPS and 20 things about D&D, and I say "GURPS does this better," it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to reply with "Go play GURPS, then."

(Not that I'd characterize your own posts as anything so rude and dismissive. I'm just using examples, and I'm talking about a wider phenomenon than the discussion in this thread.)