Would DnD/d20 Benfit from a 4th save?

[Andor]

Okay, bear with me for a moment here.

The Physical stats are:

Strength - How well you can exert your influence on the world around you physically.
Dexterity - How well you can evade the influence of others, and speed. Nimbleness. (Ignoring ranged combat.)
Constitution - Toughness and Endurance.

Str - Is purely active.
Dex - Reflex save
Con - Fort save

The mental stats parallel these for the most part*.

Charisma - How well you can exert your influence on the world around you socially and (sometimes) magically.
Intelligence - Speed and depth of thought. Mental agility. Ability to learn. Quickness of wit.
Wisdom - Mental Toughness and Endurance. Also perceptiveness.

Chr - Is purely active
Wis - Will save
Int - Is strangely passive, unless you're a mage.

Symetrically there ought to be a mental save tied to int. Let's call it a Wit save.

Now what does this do besides please metagame obsessed geeks?

I think there ought to be a sort of wits/mental perception check. It would be usefull in adjudicating things like illusions, memory, maze spells, puzzles, etc. It would step somewhat on the toes of the sense motive skill perhaps, but I've never been overly thrilled with the implementation of that ability anyway. Perhaps a rogues slippery mind ability should let him retry will saves as a Wit save. I also think this save would make another way to differentiate the classes, or play up the strengths of a character. It would also prop up the value of Int which is often a dump stat for melee types. It would, I think, be a good way to align a fair assortment of things that DnD handle in piecemeal fashion for want of such a mechanic.

Do people think there would be value in adding such a save to DnD/D20?

Let's ignore that you would need a system change to implement this, I'm not trying to start a 4e thread.

*I know it's not a perfect parallel, nor do I think it needs to be, let's stay on topic.

 

[JustKim]

Illusions are a good start, but remember that saves are to prevent something from happening. A check is more appropriate for mazes, puzzles and the like.

 

[Drowbane]

Neat idea, I see your logic somewhat. But I really don't see any need for an extra Save.

3 is a good number.

 

[Starglim]

This might work something like Call of Cthulhu's Idea roll, as a DM tool to give players bits of information.

Currently the 3 saves are distributed between the classes in a way that contributes to balance between them and makes spellcasters better able to resist spells. What classes do you see as being strong in the Wits save?

 

[wingsandsword]

No, I think the current system works quite well.

One big advantage in 3e over earlier editions was greatly simplifying the way overcomplicated saving throw system of earlier editions, with 6 overlapping categories (that could get downright byzantine with multiclassed characters), which sometimes (but not often) had ability scores modify things, and not to mention magic items.

Are you avoiding the problem by being tough and enduring it, or is it straining your body? That's a fortitude save.

Are you trying to get out of the way quickly from something or are your fast reflexes what is going to be tested? That's a reflex save.

Are you avoiding the problem by willpower and your mind? It's a will save.

All the various saving throws of earlier eras could be reduced to trying to avoid those problems by one of three ways: Toughness, agility, or resolve, so those are the types of saves.

From a game balance perspective, Intelligence is already a powerful stat since it affects skill point acquisition and a large number of skills, there is no need to add something like a 4th save based on it.

 

[Starman]

Would DnD/d20 Benfit from a 4th save?

What, like a Toughness save?

 

[Psion]

I don't think symmetry seeking makes for good game design. Its goals are false.

I did have a 4th save in my pre-3e playtest rules kitbash: fortune. It was based on charisma.

 

[interwyrm]

I like the damage save idea, not the one from UA that uses the fort save though.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I'd like to see a CHA-based save, if only to give it some utility for the non-face party members.

 

[Remathilis]

Castles and Crusades has 6 saves, one per attribute score...

Actually, I think D&D doesn't need another save category as much as it needs a middle save progession (like almost every other d20 book has)