Would DnD/d20 Benfit from a 4th save?

[Andor]

This might work something like Call of Cthulhu's Idea roll, as a DM tool to give players bits of information.

Currently the 3 saves are distributed between the classes in a way that contributes to balance between them and makes spellcasters better able to resist spells. What classes do you see as being strong in the Wits save?

Actually I see that as an interesting way to help differentiate between classes. For example both Wizards and Clerics are mucking about with Primal forces and should have great mental resilience (Will save) but while a Wizards lives by his wits and should have a great Wit save a cleric is more bound by dogma than prone to original thought and would have a poor Wit save.

Similarly a Fighter would be Fort - Strong, Rest Poor
A Rogue might be Ref/Wit Strong, Will/Fort - Poor
A Swashbuckler would split the difference with Fort/Ref/Wit Strong - Wil Poor

Illusions are a good start, but remember that saves are to prevent something from happening. A check is more appropriate for mazes, puzzles and the like.

Well, that's a consideration, that this would more often function as a check than as a save. But it's a grey area that seperates them. Is a Fort roll to keep marching a save vs an effect or a check to overcome a condition?

Plus I do feel that this is something missing from the system as it stands. Consider that the only memory related rule (that I can think of at any rate) is the Autohypnosis psionic skill. Only psions can memorize stuff?

Plus I think it could feed into a bunch of nifty feats or mechanics like the Slippery Mind ability.

But it's certainly valid to point out that it's far more of an active use than the rest of the saves are. OTOH I've often been puzzled at the lengths gone to to avoid using the saves as active abilites. There are a few Stat check rules out there where I wonder why it's not tied to a save instead.

 

[Odhanan]

Do people think there would be value in adding such a save to DnD/D20?

No. The Will save is what fits the bill to resist mental affecting effects, such as illusions. Three saves are way enough IMO.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Actually, I think D&D doesn't need another save category as much as it needs a middle save progession (like almost every other d20 book has)

Agreed.

 

[JustKim]

The reason there isn't a middle save progression is that it doesn't follow the math of the other save progressions. It's based on the other save progressions, not on the scaling of DCs. It follows a good progression, then falls behind to poor for a while, making a lag point that does not exist in any other progression of abilities, and which favors multiclass characters. It's a square peg.

As for the medium save being needed, that's just a bizarre notion. How many people are really complaining that good saves are too good and poor saves are too poor? It's just a matter of wanting WotC to acknowledge the patches of third parties, isn't it? But the patch is faulty anyway.

 

[wingsandsword]

As for the medium save being needed, that's just a bizarre notion. How many people are really complaining that good saves are too good and poor saves are too poor? It's just a matter of wanting WotC to acknowledge the patches of third parties, isn't it? But the patch is faulty anyway.

No, it's not "bizarre" it's a design oversight in D&D.

It works just fine in d20 Modern, it works just fine in d20 Star Wars, it works just fine in d20 Wheel of Time, so apparently WotC sees nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a save progression that's +1 at first level, and +9 at 20th level. It's not a third party patch, WotC first put it out only three months after the 3e PHB (Players Handbook in August 2000, d20 Star Wars in November 2000), so it's not like a recent idea or some third party hack addition. It's also commonly found in many other d20 games, other than d20 Fantasy/D&D, D&D is the odd man out here, it's what is "bizarre".

A "medium" save progression works well to more clearly define what a class is good at and not good at, and what it's only okay at, as is, a class is either excellent at a certain type of save, or abysmal, with no middle ground.

 

[Psion]

As for the medium save being needed, that's just a bizarre notion. How many people are really complaining that good saves are too good and poor saves are too poor? It's just a matter of wanting WotC to acknowledge the patches of third parties, isn't it? But the patch is faulty anyway.

WotC were one of the first ones to introduce a standardized middle save with d20 modern.

 

[JustKim]

It wasn't a design oversight. When 3E was made the designers poured over the math and came up with two formulas, 1/2 and 1/3 progression, for saving throws. When the medium save progression was introduced (I remembered it as something Green Ronin, but I think you're right about it being Star Wars), one of the 3E designers asked the designer responsible for the medium save what formula had used, and he said "I didn't realize there was a formula".

The progression is not even. Between 1/2 and 1/3, you're always going to have an uneven progression. Where the rest of 3E is a steady formula, the medium progression is not. You may not look at it and think "Oh my god, this ruins everything", but there isn't actually a need for it and it does compromise the formula, so yes, I find it bizarre that someone would say "D&D needs this". Needs? What need does it fill? When I port a class with a medium save to my game, I replace it with either a good or a poor save. I can't rationalize complicating saving throws and introducing a system that will always have to be book referenced just because, hey, across 20 levels something could fit between 1/2 and 1/3. It's not needed.

 

[The_Gneech]

I would like to see Charisma work on some kind of levelling scale -- I've always thought it was bizarre that a 20th-level half-orc barbarian could still have an Intimidate check of -1.

-The Gneech

 

[Ranger REG]

Do people think there would be value in adding such a save to DnD/D20?

Not at the moment.

 

[GSHamster]

What about the opposite? Going down to 2 saves, one physical and one mental?

I kind of agree that having an unbalanced number of saves makes physical stats more desirable than they should be. On the other hand, I can't really envision a second mental save.

How about a Charisma save to avoid social humilation?

"Bored courtier makes a wickedly cutting remark. Make a social save for a witty comeback!" Heh, reminds me of Monkey Island swordfighting.