Would DnD/d20 Benfit from a 4th save?

[glass]

No. The Will save is what fits the bill to resist mental affecting effects, such as illusions. Three saves are way enough IMO.

Except that illusions aren't really the same as mind-affecting effects.


glass.

 

[glass]

Castles and Crusades has 6 saves, one per attribute score...

I like that as an idea too. Probably just two 'base saves' (mental and physical), each modified by the three relevant stats.

Actually, I think D&D doesn't need another save category as much as it needs a middle save progession (like almost every other d20 book has)

I've often wondered why it didn't have one.


glass.

 

[glass]

The progression is not even. Between 1/2 and 1/3, you're always going to have an uneven progression. Where the rest of 3E is a steady formula, the medium progression is not.

Could you explain this a bit further? All the progressions are uneven: they go up at some levels and not others. What makes a medium progression inherently more uneven than others?

Not trying to be snarky, here. I genuinely want to understand.


glass.

 

[lukelightning]

No, 3 categories works fine.

 

[Mark CMG]

Hmmm.... although I do not necessarily see the real need for an additional save, I would say that a Cha based save, to avoid stat-dumping, would be more logical.

My gut reaction is to agree with this sentiment. However, I also think bringing Charisma more in line with the other ability scores is an area where the 3E designers might have gone further. To that extent I would proffer that if Charisma is truly meant to be representative of a character's force of personality, the Will save should be tied to it. However, a fourth save might be added called Deception that would still be tied to a character's Wisdom. Effects like a suggestion, a test of wills, would be mentally battled by a Will save while illusions would remain the province of the Wisdom's Deception save.

 

[Umbran]

To that extent I would proffer that if Charisma is truly meant to be representative of a character's force of personality, the Will save should be tied to it.

I tend to think that Charisma is the ability to express your will outwards. Wisdom has to do with impressing your will inwards, on yourself. The Will save is almost always directed inwards - keeping your own will in the face of external pressure.

How impress you are on stage has little to do with how well you can keep yoruself from having that next alcoholic drink, for example.

 

[howandwhy99]

Save Vs. Death.

This one would progress equally for all classes and not be modified by an ability score. I'd leave this in for all the high level auto-kill spells. And then take out some of the "do over" resurrection spells.

 

[Remathilis]

It wasn't a design oversight. When 3E was made the designers poured over the math and came up with two formulas, 1/2 and 1/3 progression, for saving throws. When the medium save progression was introduced (I remembered it as something Green Ronin, but I think you're right about it being Star Wars), one of the 3E designers asked the designer responsible for the medium save what formula had used, and he said "I didn't realize there was a formula".

Your logic seems right, but your forgetting one characteristic, that the "good" save begins at +2 1/2, not + 1/2. (Like the poor starting at +1/3) So the room for a good save might fall in that +2/+0 starting deficet.

A middle save could be a simple as a +1 tacked onto the poor (1/3) or good (1/2) number. However, that doesn't seem too unique (middle high being +11, middle poor +7)

A 2/3 or a 3/4 would quicky outstrip the good progession. A 1/4 or 1/5 would be too slow to be useful. Star Wars uses a 3 then 2 pattern, but not a fractional number (that I can tell) However, it does begin a +1 and end a +9 (falling distinctly in the middle). Any math major want to see what that chart comes out as?

I haven't seen d20 Moderns progession either, that might be a starting place.

 

[GSHamster]

That's considered a special attack? I'd rather use opposed skill/ability check.

Why not a tumble check instead of a reflex save?

Saves are reactive, checks are active. I view a witty comeback as more of a reactive thing, making it somewhat appropriate for saves.

 

[JustKim]

Could you explain this a bit further? All the progressions are uneven: they go up at some levels and not others. What makes a medium progression inherently more uneven than others?

Not trying to be snarky, here. I genuinely want to understand.


glass.

1/3 and 1/2 progressions begin with 0 at each interval (except for the +2 at 1st level), meaning that you're always headed toward more points unless you've just finished a cycle. With 2/5 progression, there's no way to space everything out evenly, so at some point you will be headed toward less points, usually before finishing a cycle. It tends to go 1/2, 1/2, 1/3, and although there are other ways, none of them use the same math that's present throughout the d20 system.