Would DnD/d20 Benfit from a 4th save?

[Taladas]

I think that the three current saves do the job pretty well. A fourth save just doesn't seem to fit (barring using a damage save instead of HP.)

As far as save progression

Good save is 2+ (1/2*Lvl)

Poor save is 1/3*Lvl

So a Medium save should be 1 + (5/12*Lvl)
which while ugly is mathematically accurate.

 

[Remathilis]

I think that the three current saves do the job pretty well. A fourth save just doesn't seem to fit (barring using a damage save instead of HP.)

As far as save progression

Good save is 2+ (1/2*Lvl)

Poor save is 1/3*Lvl

So a Medium save should be 1 + (5/12*Lvl)
which while ugly is mathematically accurate.

Which statted (and dropping fractions like normal) would be

1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 3
8 4
9 4
10 5
11 5
12 6
13 6
14 6
15 7
16 7
17 8
18 8
19 8
20 9

Not bad. Mathmatically ugly (with the 5/12s) but nice when finished...

 

[Ranger REG]

Saves are reactive, checks are active. I view a witty comeback as more of a reactive thing, making it somewhat appropriate for saves.

No, a witty comeback is nothing more than the "best defense is your best offense" activity. IOW, you don't cancel out someone's witty remark, you outdo or one-up him and humiliate him back.

 

[frankthedm]

As for the medium save being needed, that's just a bizarre notion. How many people are really complaining that good saves are too good and poor saves are too poor?

A designer or two has said the huge save dispairity can bring up issues once in the area of epic level play. They even went so far as suggesting the DM needs to pull punches and not wail on the epic characters bad saves.

Also, many 'all or nothing' spells that allow fort saves are veiwed as "not worth it" because so many monsters have huge fort saves, from having good fort save and a high con from being a Big Fat Monster. On the other side of the coin, there are also several high CR monsters that have glass jaws in the will save department that need a touch higher willl save to provide an actual challenge for thier CR. Mr. Mountain giant being a prime example.

 

[Nyeshet]

Actually, I tend to break the Will save into two separate saves: Perception (vs illusions, etc) based upon Wisdom and Will (vs charms, compulsions) based upon Charisma [ie: force of will]. I also tend to have Endurance checks (minus ones based on breathing, hungery, thirst) use Strength instead of Constitution (which, as health in general, seems less likely the key ability to - say - long distance running than Strength).

I still wonder at WotC for not using the Medium save progression. I get the feeling they feel embarressed by not thinking of it to begin with, and they do not use it now lest someone point out that all prior classes / PrCs and perhaps even creature types should be considered for such (for instance: Clr with a medium Fort save progression instead of a good one, etc). They don't want the hassel, so they either ignore the possibility or pretend that use of a medium save is somehow 'unfit' or 'unbalanced' and therefore beyond consideration.

 

[Dirigible]

I've always been a little uneasy with the way that your typical Wizard is braver than your typical Fighter. I mean, sure, meddling with the arcane order and looking eye-to-orifice with cosmic horrors and all, but when it comes to true grit I think Fighters shouldn't be that far behind.

 

[glass]

1/3 and 1/2 progressions begin with 0 at each interval (except for the +2 at 1st level), meaning that you're always headed toward more points unless you've just finished a cycle. With 2/5 progression, there's no way to space everything out evenly, so at some point you will be headed toward less points, usually before finishing a cycle. It tends to go 1/2, 1/2, 1/3, and although there are other ways, none of them use the same math that's present throughout the d20 system.

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just being dense, but I just don't get this. How can you be 'heading toward less points'? Whatever save progression you picked for the medium save, it would obviously be an upward progression!

At any given level (apart from first), a save goes up by a point, or not at all. A Good progression goes up at more levels than a Poor. A Medium progression would go up at more levels than than a Poor, but fewer than a Good.

How is this a problem?


glass.

 

[Mark CMG]

I tend to think that Charisma is the ability to express your will outwards. Wisdom has to do with impressing your will inwards, on yourself. The Will save is almost always directed inwards - keeping your own will in the face of external pressure.

How impress you are on stage has little to do with how well you can keep yoruself from having that next alcoholic drink, for example.

Well, that's a function of having Charisma double as force of personality and appearance. The same situation exists if Wisdom double as force of personality and common sense.

It's interesting that the SRD decriptions of Wisdom and Charisma are now -

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

Move the word "willpower" from the Wisdom description to the Charisma and suddenly everything fits very well. Whether the actual case or just how it appears, it seems like the designers of 3E slid over all but that one word when determining that Charisma was meant to play an expanded, more definite role in the game. The problem isn't that one is more apt or should be the ability score that determines this or that. The problem is that both could arguably be used, given the descriptions, so the separation is not complete. The net effect, unfortunately, is that Charisma continues to be a dumping ground despite apparent efforts to spread things more evenly among the ability scores.

The final question becomes, is there really an interest in addressing the dumping ground issue and are folks willing to make the necessary adjustments, even if they are choices that tamper with traditional views of how ability scores work?

Most will tell you, btw, that impressing people, whether it is on or off a stage, has much to do with personal will, moreso than appearance. Some will say that presence is not a one way street that relies solely on one's looks but (and although it might a seem empathic) it really relies on one's ability to know oneself, one's own persona. Sometimes this can even be subconscious, as in the case of a so-called contagious laugh. One can sway a crowd with words and a smile, to a point, but being a leader requires personal strength of convictions and inner confidence.

I'm not one that feels the Intimidate skill should be tied to Wisdom, though by your measure I guess you might be.


BTW, Your stage versus alcoholic example is poorly chosen, IMO. Alchoholism is a disease. I don't feel there is enough data on it to use it as an example related to simple willpower, one way or another, so I suggest we set it aside in favor of other, more fruitful points of discussion.

 

[Mark CMG]

Actually, I tend to break the Will save into two separate saves: Perception (vs illusions, etc) based upon Wisdom and Will (vs charms, compulsions) based upon Charisma [ie: force of will]. I also tend to have Endurance checks (minus ones based on breathing, hungery, thirst) use Strength instead of Constitution (which, as health in general, seems less likely the key ability to - say - long distance running than Strength).

I still wonder at WotC for not using the Medium save progression. I get the feeling they feel embarressed by not thinking of it to begin with, and they do not use it now lest someone point out that all prior classes / PrCs and perhaps even creature types should be considered for such (for instance: Clr with a medium Fort save progression instead of a good one, etc). They don't want the hassel, so they either ignore the possibility or pretend that use of a medium save is somehow 'unfit' or 'unbalanced' and therefore beyond consideration.

Perception might be a better word/name choice than Deception as a fourth save. Mind if I use it?

 

[lukelightning]

I've always been a little uneasy with the way that your typical Wizard is braver than your typical Fighter. I mean, sure, meddling with the arcane order and looking eye-to-orifice with cosmic horrors and all, but when it comes to true grit I think Fighters shouldn't be that far behind.

But many of the monsters you face have strange and mysterious powers that a wizard is more likely to understand than a fighter. This is balanced out by the fact that I've seen more wizards voluntarily run screaming like a little girl from combat than fighters. "Aaaah! A hobgoblin! And that stupid meatshield is across the room fighting someone else, neglecting his primary duty! I'm outta here!"