Would love input on changes made to Ranger

[ScuroNotte]

There's a feel of letting the rest of the party soak all the enemy attacks and then the ranger just prances around and murderates everything. Moving the 11th level abilities down to 7th and making them better seals it.

I was with some of the stealthing but the collective effect makes a kiter or a ghost and as a DM I'd tire or both very quickly.

After looking through the abilities, I agree I made a character as stealthy as a Rogue. Do you think the following changes would help

1. Removed Skirmisher's Stealth I was debating keeping this and removing Hide bonus action from Vanish. Wasn't certain which was better to change. Maybe you can help.
2. I restricted Whirlwind to straight line. Movement is either half of normal movement or remaining movement, whichever is less.

The Reason I added Art of War is that a Ranger is meant to fight hordes, so having an ability to maneuver among the creatures should be permitted. This is more desirable to a melee weapon fighter. I was trying to select abilities that would appeal to different styles of combat.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I made some changes to the base Ranger class and Hunter class.

Do they seem to make the Ranger's allies less like fodder and more like companions?

Your input is very insightful and I am trying to implement them.

I hope to continue receiving your input.

Thank you.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I under stand that some tables want to move the Ranger to the top of the damage per turn pecking order. This build accomplishes the task at the expense of someone's else favorite class moving to the back of the bus.

Encounter pacing has a large effect of the way the classes compare but the reliance and abundance of at-will abilities here let the Ranger be top of the heap in most of them even if the single target spike damage isn't the best.

My intention was not make the Ranger the top of the heap. My intention is to not have so much fluff.

With changes I have made, I do not think is the case any longer. But I could still be looking through my "special" lenses,

 

[akr71]

Beast Master

3rd level Aid of the Beast
Anytime both you and your beast companion attack the same creature, and the beast is in melee combat with that creature, you gain sneak attack bonus once per turn.

Levels 1 through 6 1d8
Levels 7 through 14 2d8
Levels 15 through 20 3d8

3rd Level Ranger's Companion
Choose a beast the is no larger than Medium and maximum CR of 1/4. Add your proficiency bonus to its AC, Attack rolls, and damage rolls as well as saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit points maximum equals its normal maximum or 4 times your Ranger level, which ever is greater.

I would be inclined to give advantage on attack rolls (pack tactics) rather than additional damage, but I'm not totally against it.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I would be inclined to give advantage on attack rolls (pack tactics) rather than additional damage, but I'm not totally against it.

I initially thought of that, but some beasts have that as a trait. I would be taking that benefit away.
I thought a sneak attack like bonus would be acceptable

 

[jodyjohnson]

Spells
Progression and number known as a Paladin. Using Wisdom as spell casting ability. Number known is level plus Wisdom modifier. No oath spells. (at least at this time).

This is confusing. The Ranger and Paladin have the same number of slots on the chart.
"Spells known is equal to your Ranger level plus your Wisdom modifier." That gives a Range of probably 3 at 2nd up to 23ish at 20th. Same as Paladin once the Paladin's Oath spells are added.

HUNTER

3rd - Select ONE
Art of War
Your skill in combat with hordes allows you to move through numbers without fear of reprisal. During your turn, when you make a melee attack against a creature, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
Bowman's Expert
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack, you can use your ranged weapon attack versus a melee weapon attack.

A little surprised you drop Hunter's Prey here. I'd add Bowman's Expert as a Hunter's Prey option and move Art of War to the Defensive options at 7th.

11th - Select ONE
Whirlwind Attack
Added movement to attack action, You attack each creature within half of your movement or your remaining movement, which ever is less, in a straight line. Roll for each attack separately.

How does the change to Two Weapon at 9th interact with this? Should be attacks over a 15 to 20 foot path after Swift of Foot. Should be comparable to Volley in attacks but possible more, or less. I like this better at 11 when the Fighter gets his 3rd attack. Almost requires Art of War.

Overall this Base Ranger and Hunter are not overwhelmingly good but unevenly better than the PHB version, stealth and exploration improved, but damage is lower with losing Hunter's Prey. The Ranger recovers at 9th and 11th when the increases to Two Weapon Fighting style and Whirlwind make up for it.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Beast Master

3rd level Aid of the Beast
Anytime both you and your beast companion attack the same creature, and the beast is in melee combat with that creature, you gain sneak attack bonus once per turn.

Levels 1 through 6 1d8
Levels 7 through 14 2d8
Levels 15 through 20 3d8

As pointed out already, I'm not sure how this plays out before 5th. Extra attack let's you use it. Then at 7th it becomes an almost at will damage add. In a lot of scenarios you are actually going to out damage the Hunter - plus you get all the advantages of having 2 pawns, 2 sets of perception checks, and the hit point buffer.

3rd Level Ranger's Companion
Choose a beast the is no larger than Medium and maximum CR of1/4. Add your proficiency bonus to its AC, Attack rolls, and damage rolls as well as saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit points maximum equals its normal maximum or 4 times your Ranger level, which ever is greater.

Up to this point your companion is book standard.

As you progress in levels, the companions CR rating and size increase as well. It can either be to selecting a new companion or the maturation of the selected companion animal. For example, a wolf eventually "grows" into a Winter wolf.

Level CR Size
3rd Level 1/4 Medium or smaller
6th Level 1/2 Large or smaller
9th Level 1 Large or smaller
12th Level 2 Large or smaller
15th level 3 Huge or smaller

The companion animal can increase its ability scores with your level of progression. When your companion reaches 6th, 12th and 18th level, you can increase one of it's ability scores by 2, or two of it's ability scores by 1. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature. Or you can select an appropriate feat, such as Alert, Athlete, Charger, Durable, Grappler, Mobile, Moderately Armored, Observant, Resilient, Sentinel, or Tough.

I think the discussion would benefit from some actual stat comparisons here. Scaling proficiency (standard) plus ASI and increasing size/cr may do some interesting things with the numbers.

It can use 1 or more hit dice after a short rest, up to its maximum number of hit dice. For each hit dice spent in this way, roll the die and add your constitution modifier It regains some Hit Dice after a long rest.

This is all book standard. Not sure if you were including Brakkis' HD=Ranger level rule here (that's where the Size/CR scaling comes from).

If they have book standard HD, the healing will not keep up.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Beast Master


7th level Exceptional Training
On any of your turns, you can command it to Dash, dodge, Disengage, or Help.
Additionally, on your turn, you can use a bonus action to set your companion loose in combat. You can initially use a bonus action to let it loose on one target, then let it continue attacking other creatures it selects on its own. Unless you use another bonus action to command it otherwise. It uses it's own initiative. Until the end of combat your companion will continue to attack any hostile creature without the need of your command. During this time, it will not use Dodge or Help. It may Dash on its own to reach a creature in combat or Disengage on its own if Critically injured. You can use an action to control your companion.

Let's toss out a scenario: Party level 9. The Ranger has 20 Dex (2 ASI to Dex), A +2 main weapon, and a +1 off-hand. Armor is pretty rare by the book so +1 Studded.

She has AC 18, attacks twice at +11 for 1d6+7, and twice at +10 for 1d6+6. A solid companion at 9th is a Dire Wolf. Drop the 6th level ASI into Strength.

Dire Wolf attacks once at +10 for 2d6+8 (with advantage if another character is there for Pack Tactics) Save DC 14 for prone.

Assume the Dire Wolf goes first so Sneak and possible prone can trigger. If so add +2d8 sneak and all 4 of your attacks are at Advantage.

Just looking at average damage if everything hits (which it should if everything is at advantage): Ranger: 49, Companion: 15, 64 with at wills. Add an extra 14 from Hunter's Mark on the second round. On following rounds 78 as long as you can maintain Concentration.

So what is the Fighter busting out at 9th? Stats into Strength and PAM. Full Plate or Splint +1 plus a Ring of Protection. +2 Halberd. AC 19. Normal 2 attacks at +11 for 1d10+7, butt +11 for 1d4+7. With a Surge 5 attacks once. Drop a Trip early to get Advantage on remaining attacks. Fighter (at-will) 34.5, +13.5 with 3 Superiority dice (limited), nova (all SD plus Surge) 59.5+22.5. So his once per short rest nova does 82. After that 34.5.

So let's switch it up for the less optimal bow plus better maintenance of Hunter's Mark. AC 18 with the +1 studded and +2 Longbow. +13 for 1d8+7. Swap the companion to Tiger for the Pounce (since you have less synergy with Pack Tactics).

Send in the Tiger for the Pounce +10 claw for 1d8+8, followed by the trip (DC 14) and another +10 bite for 1d10+8. Crap, just screwed our archery. Let's do Giant Eagle or Giant Hyena instead. Both have a single attack for +10 2d6+8. Eagle ASIs Dex, Hyena Strength. Hyena AC 16. Eagle AC 18. Eagle has the edge on AC, but Hyena gets a potential bonus attack on a drop. They slide around to the side to get out of your way.

2 bows shots plus a Companion attack. 2x11.5+15+9 sneak for 47 at will. +7 once Hunter's Mark kicks in. 54 a round.

 

[ScuroNotte]

This is confusing. The Ranger and Paladin have the same number of slots on the chart.
"Spells known is equal to your Ranger level plus your Wisdom modifier." That gives a Range of probably 3 at 2nd up to 23ish at 20th. Same as Paladin once the Paladin's Oath spells are added..

Sorry English is not my best subject. You prepare the list of Ranger spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the Ranger spell list. When you do so, choose a number of Ranger spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + half your Ranger level, rounded down (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. You can change the spells known after a long rest.

A little surprised you drop Hunter's Prey here. I'd add Bowman's Expert as a Hunter's Prey option and move Art of War to the Defensive options at 7th.

Hunter's Prey is an automatic given. I broke 3rd level abilities into parts. Part A everyone gets Colossus slayer. Part B You choose a defensive capability.
I'd prefer to keep Art of War at 3rd as Ranger's. I personally feel this should have been a Ranger ability as opposed to the Swashbuckler (Who also can use Sneak Attack without a ally nearby). They are supposed to excel in combat vs hordes. This feature favors Melee weapon Rangers vs the Bowman's Expert

How does the change to Two Weapon at 9th interact with this? Should be attacks over a 15 to 20 foot path after Swift of Foot. Should be comparable to Volley in attacks but possible more, or less. I like this better at 11 when the Fighter gets his 3rd attack. Almost requires Art of War.

Separate ability. Allowing Two Weapon style to use all attacks as an Attack action allows Ranger to combat a single opponent.
Whirlwind Attack benefits form Art of War. I decided as opposed to place multiple abilities together, separate them and have the player choose. Also made each selection based on whether someone wanted a Swordsman or Archer.
Moving Volley & Whirlwind to 11th was your idea and I appreciate it. I realized fighter gets another attack at 11th and it was more fitting.

Overall this Base Ranger and Hunter are not overwhelmingly good but unevenly better than the PHB version, stealth and exploration improved, but damage is lower with losing Hunter's Prey. The Ranger recovers at 9th and 11th when the increases to Two Weapon Fighting style and Whirlwind make up for it.

As previously noted, I broke down the 3rd level Hunter into 2 parts. One of which automatically gives Colossus Slayer as an ability. That should improve the damage output early on for the Hunter Ranger.

Back to Beast Master. From your calculations, they don't need any boosts on damage as the beast more than makes up for it (or should). Understand

 

[ScuroNotte]

Let's toss out a scenario: Party level 9. The Ranger has 20 Dex (2 ASI to Dex), A +2 main weapon, and a +1 off-hand. Armor is pretty rare by the book so +1 Studded.

She has AC 18, attacks twice at +11 for 1d6+7, and twice at +10 for 1d6+6. A solid companion at 9th is a Dire Wolf. Drop the 6th level ASI into Strength.

Dire Wolf attacks once at +10 for 2d6+8 (with advantage if another character is there for Pack Tactics) Save DC 14 for prone.

Assume the Dire Wolf goes first so Sneak and possible prone can trigger. If so add +2d8 sneak and all 4 of your attacks are at Advantage.

Just looking at average damage if everything hits (which it should if everything is at advantage): Ranger: 49, Companion: 15, 64 with at wills. Add an extra 14 from Hunter's Mark on the second round. On following rounds 78 as long as you can maintain Concentration.

So what is the Fighter busting out at 9th? Stats into Strength and PAM. Full Plate or Splint +1 plus a Ring of Protection. +2 Halberd. AC 19. Normal 2 attacks at +11 for 1d10+7, butt +11 for 1d4+7. With a Surge 5 attacks once. Drop a Trip early to get Advantage on remaining attacks. Fighter (at-will) 34.5, +13.5 with 3 Superiority dice (limited), nova (all SD plus Surge) 59.5+22.5. So his once per short rest nova does 82. After that 34.5.

So let's switch it up for the less optimal bow plus better maintenance of Hunter's Mark. AC 18 with the +1 studded and +2 Longbow. +13 for 1d8+7. Swap the companion to Tiger for the Pounce (since you have less synergy with Pack Tactics).

Send in the Tiger for the Pounce +10 claw for 1d8+8, followed by the trip (DC 14) and another +10 bite for 1d10+8. Crap, just screwed our archery. Let's do Giant Eagle or Giant Hyena instead. Both have a single attack for +10 2d6+8. Eagle ASIs Dex, Hyena Strength. Hyena AC 16. Eagle AC 18. Eagle has the edge on AC, but Hyena gets a potential bonus attack on a drop. They slide around to the side to get out of your way.

2 bows shots plus a Companion attack. 2x11.5+15+9 sneak for 47 at will. +7 once Hunter's Mark kicks in. 54 a round.

Holy XXXX. Did not realize it would far outpace everyone. And here I thought had a good idea. Back to drawing board.
Not everyone would select a companion with pack tactics. But still, did not realize the consequences.
Thank you for pointing this out. Reaffirms why I always ask for feedback.