Would these two feats mix well?

[Celebrim]

OK, here you go.

You fail college.

More seriously, this doesn't address the OP's original question since my rewrite was obviously intended to achieve a certain result which may or may not have been the intention of the two original feats.

Personally, I find both feat had ideas that were clunky to word in such a way that they didn't create ambiguities in how they acted. For example, what if we had another feat (Feat #4) that said, "You may add your dexterity bonus to damage when attack with bows." Does Feat #1 allow you to use your intelligence modifier when attacking with bows when in combination with Feat #4? To me this is even more ambigious than its interaction with Feat #2, because of the wording, "when making a ranged attack, you use your Int modifer instead of Dex" Only when reworded in the highly clunky and technical way I reworded it, do you come up with the answer, "No."... which may or may not be the intention of the writer of Feat #1. (See now why I say your example doesn't answer the question?)

I also believe that both Feat #1 and Feat #2 are broken as written and would allow neither in my game. That's because they both encourge the use of 'God Stats'. Any time that a character can be made in which all or most of what he does depends on one attribute rather than many, it's a potential problem. Feat #3, while it allows for slightly more power initially, worries me less in the long run. I'm more worried about the character with 20 Int and 8 Dex that takes Feat #1, than I am about the character with 16 Int and 16 Dex (who gets no benefits from Feat #1) that takes Feat #3.

 

[Rhun]

Yes, I totally agree with both comments (hence the sarcastic name of Easy Peasy Archery). I was just posting them to help Deset Gled with his analysis.

The name for the feat is actually the part of it I liked!

I could see a PrC with like a 7th level class ability similar to Easy Peasy Archery, but certainly not a feat - unless it had a pile of difficult prerequisites. We really don't know anything about the possible prereq's in the OP's post since he only showed partial feats. We can infer their intended use, but inferring prereq's is pretty tough...

Right. Although even the dedicated archery prestige classes don't have an ability the would meet that level of benefit. At least, not that I'm aware of. If there is, let me know...because I have an elven archer with a 22 DEX that I'm playing right now...an extra +6 to hit would be S-W-E-E-T!

 

[kitcik]

Personally, I find both feat had ideas that were clunky to word in such a way that they didn't create ambiguities in how they acted.

Yes, certainly splatbooks created the 3.5 errata-writers' full employment act (except that errata-writers don't get paid). As someone else said, it is very hard to get feats working properly together, and all the harder when they are written simultaneously by different people. Nonetheless, just from the blurb we were given, I believe your interpretation was the intent of the feats. Of course, that is just a best guess.

I also believe that both Feat #1 and Feat #2 are broken as written and would allow neither in my game. That's because they both encourge the use of 'God Stats'. Any time that a character can be made in which all or most of what he does depends on one attribute rather than many, it's a potential problem. Feat #3, while it allows for slightly more power initially, worries me less in the long run. I'm more worried about the character with 20 Int and 8 Dex that takes Feat #1, than I am about the character with 16 Int and 16 Dex (who gets no benefits from Feat #1) that takes Feat #3.

I agree with your concern, being able to have all your important stuff attached to one stat makes things a bit too easy, but I am not sure that I agree with your conclusion on these particular proposed feats.

While the first guy is able to go from -1 ranged TH to +5 (a huge swing), he is still sucking down that -1 on AC and reflex saves. In other words, this feat would generally not make Dex a dump stat by itself (and investing several feats to create one dump stat may well be balanced).

On the other hand, let's make the other guy more equivalent. Int 8 & Dex 20. Now he goes from +5 to +10 --> a smaller increment but it gets him to basically epic levels of bonus at first level. Having such an extreme TH bonus at an early level could break a campaign.

Let's say both guys keep pumping those same stats (with normal ability increases and items) and get them to 30 at level 20.

Guy #1 now has +20 ranged TH rather than -1. This is big, but then again he is level 20. If he is a caster, isn't he going to hit almost all the time with his ranged touch attacks anyway?

Guy #2 now has +40 ranged TH rather than +20. This again seems more troubling to me.

I guess one argument that would work is "feat 1 helps specialized casters and ranged warblades, feat 2 helps other ranged melee/roguish folks, who needs more help?"

 

[Celebrim]

I agree with your concern, being able to have all your important stuff attached to one stat makes things a bit too easy, but I am not sure that I agree with your conclusion on these particular proposed feats.

While the first guy is able to go from -1 ranged TH to +5 (a huge swing), he is still sucking down that -1 on AC and reflex saves. In other words, this feat would generally not make Dex a dump stat by itself (and investing several feats to create one dump stat may well be balanced).

On the other hand, let's make the other guy more equivalent. Int 8 & Dex 20. Now he goes from +5 to +10 --> a smaller increment but it gets him to basically epic levels of bonus at first level. Having such an extreme TH bonus at an early level could break a campaign.

I agree with you that Feat #2 is more broken than Feat #1. My point was that this fact doesn't make me more comfortable with Feat #1. I'm also not at all sure that I agree that an investment in two three feats is balanced with being able to dump an ability. Dumping dex is particularly hard because its already a God Stat influencing to hit, AC, reflex saves, initiative, and many skills. But consider the utility that would be gained by a feat that made skill points work off of Wisdom, or a two feat chain that allowed melee weapon damage and to hit bonus to depend on Constitution.

 

[kitcik]

We agree, but I cannot give you XP until I dump some on others...

 

[Mistah J]

We agree, but I cannot give you XP until I dump some on others...

Well, I will give some instead.

Thanks for the discussion, it raises some great points on Feat design and interaction to be sure. I suppose some ambiguity was inevitable since I just came up with some 'proto-feats'. I guess the devil really is in the details.

I also believe that both Feat #1 and Feat #2 are broken as written and would allow neither in my game. That's because they both encourge the use of 'God Stats'. Any time that a character can be made in which all or most of what he does depends on one attribute rather than many, it's a potential problem. Feat #3, while it allows for slightly more power initially, worries me less in the long run.

That's a good point. I'm curious then if you disagree with (or dislike) any "stat-swap' feats for the same reason? I mean, I see where your coming from and pretty much agree with you too - especially when talking about ridiculous feats that let you use Cha to damage instead of Str* but technically, Weapon Finesse fits in this category as well.

*at least, I feel such a feat would be ridiculous. Built only so people could have their sorcerer's get a leg up in combat while keeping Str their dump stat.

 

[Aramalian]

Dumping dex is particularly hard because its already a God Stat influencing to hit, AC, reflex saves, initiative, and many skills.

This statement seems to refute your own claim that Insight Archery (and its existing sibling Zen Archery - someone needs to come up with a "Friendly Fletching" feat that swaps Dex for Cha on ranged attacks) is broken. AC and Initiative are two big reasons why an arcane caster isn't going to dump Dex. Obviously, it won't be their primary stat, but it ought to be the highest of their top three (STR, DEX, CON).

 

[Celebrim]

Quote A

This statement seems to refute your own claim that Insight Archery (and its existing sibling Zen Archery - someone needs to come up with a "Friendly Fletching" feat that swaps Dex for Cha on ranged attacks) is broken.

Quote B

AC and Initiative are two big reasons why an arcane caster isn't going to dump Dex. Obviously, it won't be their primary stat, but it ought to be the highest of their top three (STR, DEX, CON).

I'll have to address this at greater length later, but if Quote A is your thesis how is Quote B any evidence for it? Are you arguing that Zen Archery or Insight Archery are particularly likely to be picked up by arcane casters? Why exactly would feats that enhance martial skill be picked up by arcane casters that are unlikely in the long run to ever make much use of them? And if they aren't associated with arcane casters, how is the behavior of arcane casters in any way a point against or in favor of whether they are balanced? The points your raise in Quote B have absolutely no relation to the thesis you present in Quote A.

 

[kitcik]

Clearly, Insight Archery is directed to an Int-based archery build.

The best current archery builds are classes that are typically Str- or Dex- based, such as fighters and rangers and scouts.

If you are going to build an archer from one of those, why waste a feat on Insight Archery? Just to get a few skill points at the expense of AC, Reflex and Init (and the feat slot)?

This new feat would be for something different, like an arcane archer (not necessarily the PrC of the same name, but an archery / caster type) or a warblade archer or maybe a factotum archer.

In either case, those classes are unlikely to dump Dex for the reasons stated.

I honestly don't think many people would take Insight Archery if it were available, and for that reason I do not believe it is broken. Easy Peasy Archery, on the other hand, would be taken as the first feat by EVERY archery build, IMHO.

 

[Aramalian]

Celebrim, you asserted that Insight Archery was broken because it encouraged Dex-dumping. MY thesis is that the points you made about AC and Initiative are precisely what balances the feat. No one with an INT higher than their DEX is going to dump DEX. DEX is too important to dump for any class (except, arguably, divine casters).

I'm arguing that Insight Archery is MORE likely to be picked up by arcane casters than any other classes - what other classes are likely to max out INT?

In the same vein, Zen Archery is MORE likely to be picked up by a divine caster - it draws them closer to being SAD. And since most divine casters can wear most armors w/o penalty, I'd argue that Zen Archery is more broken than the hypothetical Insight Archery. Arcane casters need DEX more than divine casters do.