would this custom Rapid Reload be too powerful?

[epicbob]

Thing is, while I personally feel that 3.5's Rapid Reload makes repeating crossbows entirely pointless, the previous 3.0 rule feels too weak since you only gain 1 extra attack over 2 rounds. This means a total of 3 attacks over 2 rounds.

I figured the free action could be applied 2 times per turn instead of 1 time.

The crossbow will be at its most powerful during the first 2 rounds where you'll get 5 attacks total. After that, however, you'll always get an average of 4 attacks over 2 rounds no matter what you do.

Sadly, this would still mean that repeaters are minimal improvements.

 

[Sekhmet]

Acquiring Rapid Reload = One Bolt, No Free Hands, One Feat for each Crossbow type you want to fire.
Firing Repeating Crossbows = Five Bolts, One Hand Free, One Feat for each Repeater you want to fire.

To be honest, a Repeater isn't a bad choice. Being able to use a shield or some other object in your off hand at least every other round isn't terrible.
As for attacks per round goes, lets examine it.
[sblock=STOOF]
Level 20 Fighter.
Repeating Light Crossbow = 4 attacks, 1 attack, reload round, 4 attacks, 1 attack, reload round. 10 Attacks over 6 rounds.
Light Crossbow w/Rapid Reload = 4 Attacks per round over 6 rounds is 24 attacks over 6 rounds.
Advantage to the Light Crossbow.

Repeating Heavy Crossbow = 4 attacks, 1 attack, reload, 4 attacks, 1 attack, reload. 10 attacks over 6 rounds.
Heavy Crossbow w/Rapid Reload = 1 attack per round over 6 rounds. 6 attacks, 6 rounds.
Advantage Repeater.


If we examine an average BAB instead...
Level 20 Rogue

Repeating Light Crossbow = 3 attacks, 2 attacks, reload round. 3 attacks, 2 attacks, reload round. 10 attacks over 6 rounds.
Light Crossbow w/rapid Reload = 3 attacks per round over 6 rounds. 18 attacks per round.

Repeating Heavy Crossbow = 3 attacks, 2 attacks, reload round. 3 attacks, 2 attacks, reload round. 10 attacks over 6 rounds.
Heavy Crossbow w/Rapid Reload = 1 attack per round over 6 rounds. 6 attacks, 6 rounds.


Aaaand why not, a poor BAB.
Level 20 Wizard making things go pewpew with a laser sound because he took a Feeblemind spell and likes the sound of a laser.

Repeating Light Crossbow = 2 attacks, 2 attacks, 1 attack, reload round, 2 attacks 2 attacks, 1 attack, reload round. 10 attacks over 8 rounds (and 9 attacks over 6 rounds to keep it in touch with previous examples).
Light Crossbow w/Rapid Reload = 2 attacks per round over 8 rounds (or 2 attacks per round over 6 rounds). 16 attacks, 8 rounds (or 12 attacks, 6 rounds).

Repeating Heavy Crossbow = 2 attacks, 2 attacks, 1 attack, reload round, 2 attacks 2 attacks, 1 attack, reload round. 10 attacks over 8 rounds (and 9 attacks over 6 rounds to keep it in touch with previous examples).
Heavy Crossbow w/Rapid Reload = 1 attack per round over 8 rounds (or 6 rounds). 8 attacks, 8 rounds (or 6 attacks, 6 rounds).
[/sblock]

It is very clear that a Repeating Heavy Crossbow is superior to a Heavy Crossbow with Rapid Reload across all fields, while a Light Crossbow with Rapid Reload is superior to the Repeating Light Crossbow over all fields.

Results may skew when enchantments are in place.

 

[epicbob]

I'm not talking about the different crossbows. I have plenty to say about those myself but, right now, I'm only talking about the feat.

I want to know if 2 free reloads per round is still too much with the normal light crossbow.

 

[Sekhmet]

I was just showing that different crossbows change the way the feat and rapid reload correlate. In some instances, Rapid Reload is better (and it is strictly better with certain enchantments), where in some instances the Repeater is better.

In the case that you're inferring, allowing Rapid Reload only two reloads per round would change the dynamic in the following ways.

[sblock=MoreStuff]
20 Fighter
R.L.Xbow = 4, 1, R, 4, 1, R = 10/6 (or 1.66r/2)
Xbow w/RR = 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 = 13/6 (2.166r/2)

20 Rogue
R.L.Xbow = 3,2, R, 3, 2, R = 10/6 (or 1.66r/1)
Xbow w/RR = 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 = 13/6 (2.166r/1)

20 Wizard
R.L.Xbow = 2, 2, 1, R, 2, 2, (1, R) = 10/8 (or 1.25/1) [9/6 or 1.5/1]
Xbow w/RR = 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, (2, 2) = 16/8 (or 2/1) [12/6 or 2/1] [/sblock]

Either way, Rapid Reload still wins with a Light Crossbow.

 

[epicbob]

I think the real problem is that when they buffed up Rapid Reload, they forgot to adjust the repeater accordingly.

If bolt cases held 10 shots like the real-life Chinese repeating crossbow, you'd be able to sustain the weapon's ROF well enough to make the weapon worth it (although the masterwork-class price is still highly questionable).

edit : btw, what's up with the white/sky blue coloring?

 

[Sekhmet]

I don't like it, either (the white/sky blue colour).

As for 10 round clips - there is nothing out there saying you can't modify it for additional bolts (or even a minor enchantment to make it a never-ending-clip).

If it were 10 rounds, the math would change a little for the better, but it still wouldn't be as fast as Rapid Reload (unless using a Heavy Crossbow).

The math would look something like this: [sblock=OtherStuff]
I'll just do the new math over enough rounds to make it reload twice.

20 Fighter
RLX10 = 4, 4, 2, R, 4, 4, 2, R = 20 bolts over 8 rounds = 2.5/r.
LXB w/RR = 4/r over 8 rounds = 32 bolts at 4/r.

RHX10 = 4, 4, 2, R, 4, 4, 2, R = 20 bolts over 8 rounds = 2.5/r
RXB w/RR = 1/r.

20 Rogue =
RLX10 = 3, 3, 3, 1, R, 3, 3, 3, 1, R = 20 bolts over 10 rounds = 2/r.
LX w/RR = 3/r over 10 rounds = 30 attacks over 10 rounds = 3/r.

RHX10 = 3, 3, 3, 1, R, 3, 3, 3, 1, R = 20 bolts over 10 rounds = 2/r.
RX w/RR = 1/r.

20 Wizard

RLX10 = 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, R, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, R = 20 bolts over 12 rounds = 1.66~/r
LX w/RR = 2/r over 12 rounds = 24 bolts over 12 rounds = 2/r.

RHX10 = As RLX10
HX w/RR = As other classes.

It's interesting that the classes don't correlate as well as you'd think they would.

With the 2 bolts reload max you proposed, Repeaters would become strictly better (don't need to invest a feat to perform the attacks, though you do if you don't want proficiency negatives).

For Fighters:
2.5/r vs. 2/r.
For Rogues:
2/r vs. 2/r.
For Wizards:
1.66~ vs. 2/r


Repeaters across the board are better for Heavy Crossbows, regardless of how you change RR, unless you can get another move action per round - the most you can do is one attack.
[/sblock]

 

[epicbob]

10 round repeaters being strictly better is the exact idea.

I mean, if you're going to dump 400 gold in a non-masterwork weapon, it BETTER be worth getting. Even better, imagine the repeater's results if you went for Rapid Shot.

As for the Heavy Crossbow, being limited to 1 attack per round means the only way it can ever be good is with a bigger dice AND a wider critical range. Heck, maybe even a double dice like the Greatsword.

 

[Sekhmet]

Quite the opposite of what you're thinking, either way you're investing in a feat, so they should be comparable. Price is not a deciding factor in whether a type of weapon is used over another type of weapon.

That the RHX is strictly better across the board than the HX w/RR means that if you want to use a Heavy Crossbow, you're choosing the Repeater instead of the feat.

That the RLX is strictly worse than the LX w/RR means that if you want a better chance to hit and the potential to deal more damage, you use the Rapid Reload feat.

A very simple fix, if you actually want Repeaters to be strictly better than non-repeaters, allow Rapid Reload to work in conjuction with them to make it a move action to reload instead of a Full Round Action and "viola", done.

 

[epicbob]

Why pay 250-400 gold for a weapon that:

1. needs a feat to even use?
2. can't do consecutive full attacks from lack of ammo?
3. has vastly cheaper AND superior alternatives?

sure, the Heavy Repeater offers a d10 and 19-20 criticals but you don't even get 3 attacks per round on average. IMO, this is not worth 400 gold.

In these circumstances, I'll be quite happy with a d8 and a 35 gold price tag.

I've thought about letting Rapid Reload work on repeaters but ultimately, it doesn't fix the crippling problem of low ammo capacity. 5 bolts simply isn't enough ammunition.

 

[Sekhmet]

Considering allowing Rapid Reload to work on Repeating Heavy Crossbows would reduce it to a Move Action means that you could full attack every round you could normally full attack with any weapon, you're using two feats (instead of one) and only marginally increasing their viability.

Keep in mind that any Crossbow needs a feat to use with any degree of worth (Rapid Reload), otherwise you're unable to full attack with even a Light Crossbow.

As it stands, Repeating Heavy Crossbows are strictly better than Heavy Crossbows with the Rapid Reload feat without changing a thing.

Most people would choose more attacks over one damage dice because the majority of an attack's damage comes from bonuses. There isn't any way to make the Heavy Crossbow better than the Light Crossbow without making it strictly better across the board - something that is frowned upon due to balancing issues.