Would you allow this?

[AnonymousOne]

This is from another post but I suppose it goes here. I can't find a mechanic for this, so I guess I'll stick it here to see what the response is.

Let's assume you are running a Two-Weapon Fighting character who is using a buckler with Improved Buckler Defense.

The text for the Buckler states that a -1 is incurred on all offhand attacks in addition to the penalties for TWF and any penalties incurred if the weapon is not light, etc. due to the weight of the buckler.

What if the buckler is mithral? That would make the Buckler 2.5 lbs. Now if you accept that the weight of the buckler is what gives the off-hand attack a -1, would you rule that a mithral buckler used in conjunction with something very light ... like a dagger in the off-hand does NOT incur this -1?

My thought is that a Light Mace weighs 4 lbs. and is considered a light weapon, a mithral buckler & dagger weigh only 3.5 lbs combined. so the weight is actually lighter than a certain type of light weapon, and as such an additional penalty should not be incurred.

Thoughts? Is this too powerful for TWF characters, or does the drawback of iterative attack failure balance this? Would you allow this?

 

[Nifft]

Mithral bucklers are one of my pet peeves in 3.5e. No arcane spell failure? No penalty unless you use that hand to attack? It's a bit of a no-brainer (even with the -1 to attacks).

My house rules for bucklers are:

1/ It takes up a hand slot, just like a weapon (and unlike a normal shield).

2/ You can draw it (and drop it) just like a weapon.

3/ No ASF, no ACP. It just takes up one of your hands.

4/ (That thing in the picture, strapped to some guy's gauntlet? It's called a "targe". It comes with some armor. No AC bonus on its own, just like gauntlets don't give you any AC bonus on their own.)

Cheers, -- N

PS: In case it wasn't clear: IMHO, Mithral bucklers do not need any more benefits. They're too good already.

 

[AnonymousOne]

See I disagree, anything that helps the fighter or TWF Rogue is a good thing, especially if we consider how at higher levels everyone moans about how underpowered fighters can be.

Consider the Following:

The Fighter can always use more goodies to make it more attractive as a combat class.

The TWF Rogue build has squat for the chances of hitting opponents with higher ACs with iterative attacks, making the use of a full-round action risky at best and suicidal at worst. With Rogues the trend seems to be: "If you can't drop them in one hit guanteed, don't bother engaging." I really really don't like that idea.

BTW .... a masterwork Buckler also has no ACP. So I don't think this is really that unbalanced, now ... granted if a player wants a +5 buckler with goodies it could become an issue, but as a DM, you have to ability to say "Yeah ... the shops here don't seem to carry that item..."

*shrugs* to each their own.

 

[kaomera]

See I disagree, anything that helps the fighter or TWF Rogue is a good thing, especially if we consider how at higher levels everyone moans about how underpowered fighters can be.

Well, I don't, so it can't actually be "everyone". (Sorry, pet peeve...)

Having gotten that off of my chest, you seem to have this well thought out, so I'd say go for it. I do agree that the biggest inherent problem with allowing buckler + TWF at all (even including all normal penalties) is that it's an extra place to hang magical benefits. In an unlimited-magic-items environment that would mean not only an additional +5 AC, but also +5 worth of other enchantments, but that is (as you point out) something that can be dealt with.

 

[Nifft]

The Fighter can always use more goodies to make it more attractive as a combat class.

I see this helping the two-handed Barbarian more. He doesn't need the +6 AC.

-- N

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Now if you accept that the weight of the buckler is what gives the off-hand attack a -1,

I prefer the -1 coming from the fact that you have a large chunk of material hanging off-balance on your arm... regardless of weight.

In the overall scheme of things, a -1 penalty isn't really much. Would it be 'too powerful' to do away with this? no. But is it worth it? Meh...

 

[AnonymousOne]

I see this helping the two-handed Barbarian more. He doesn't need the +6 AC.

-- N

Ah but Improved Buckler Defense doesn't apply to a two-handed weapon. It specifically extends ONLY to those characters running a TWF setup.

I know a -1 isn't much but it seems rather counter-intuitive that a 2.5 pound buckler throws off your arm and a 4 pound mace doesn't...

Suppose you have to burn a feat (Improved Buckler Defense) in order to get this qualification for a mithral buckler?

And thanks kaomere, I should avoid such general statements and paint with a less-broad brush.

 

[Destil]

Mithral bucklers are one of my pet peeves in 3.5e. No arcane spell failure? No penalty unless you use that hand to attack? It's a bit of a no-brainer (even with the -1 to attacks).

...

-- N

Yeah the buckler rules are rather problematic, both from a historical standpoint and a "Why not strap on a mithril buckler" standpoint.

These are pretty close to my own, and I may just adopt them... here's what I've been using so far:

Buckler: A buckler is actively held in the off hand and used both to deflect blows and as a weapon. A buckler can be used as an off-hand weapon with two-weapon fighting, and doing so does not negate its AC bonus for the round. A buckler for a medium creature deals 1d4 damage, a small creature's buckler deals 1d3 instead. A bladed buckler has a 19-20 critical threat range; a spiked buckler has a x3 critical hit multiplier. A buckler is considered a weapon one size category smaller than its wielder.

I likewise removed the ability for non-bucklers shields to be used as a weapon for two-weapon fighting. There's a "Shield Bash" feat that gives you a single extra attack with a shield at -2 on a full attack, and some further feats to make this attack better but that's it.

 

[AnonymousOne]

I understand the hesitation here, but can't most of these worries be controlled by limiting what the bucklers ARE in your campaign? I mean if you want to cap it at a +1 Mithral buckler ... then you can and just give players a heads up about it.

*shrugs* maybe I'm just fighting for an unbalancing aspect.

 

[Nifft]

It's not that big a deal, I just see it giving a boost to an item that's already an annoyingly strong choice.

You won't break your game wide open or anything. I just don't really see any need to make that particular item better.

Go for it. The impact won't be huge. Don't forget that all appropriate NPCs will want one too.

Cheers, -- N