Would you suggest the Ebberon Campaign Setting?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ultimately, Kai Lord didn't shametalk the setting in any way. He merely explained why he personally has an aversion to a particular aspect of the setting, and frankly, in tones more non-judgemental than I often manage to summon up in my own posts on whatever topic is at hand :)

Just wanted to make sure it is clear he isn't slandering the setting, or being malicious. At least, not that I've seen.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Emiricol said:
Just wanted to make sure it is clear he isn't slandering the setting, or being malicious. At least, not that I've seen.
I agree. Although I also agree that it is useful to know that his issues are based on religious beliefs and not mechanical issues with the world.
 

Snoweel said:
'Allegations' is in itself too strong a word.

They are more like observations and while I understand completely what Kai was getting at, the same observation won't stop me buying the setting.
Stating that Eberron glorifies satan (albeit unintentionally) is a wee bit more than an observation.

Hellcow said:
So I find it somewhat ironic that in attempting to leave something that bothered me because of its ties to real religion behind, we managed to step in another religious minefield. The best laid plans...
It is unavoidable, we as a species look for patterns. To break it down to the simplest level it is not much different than finding a corn-flake that looks like Elvis.
 
Last edited:

Hellcow said:
I just have to say one last thing on this topic, and then I promise I'll leave it alone. Moderators, please feel free to simply remove my posts if this is inappropriate.

Actually, I'd rather leave them here, because I just KNOW the issue will be raised by someone at a future point.

So I find it somewhat ironic that in attempting to leave something that bothered me because of its ties to real religion behind, we managed to step in another religious minefield. The best laid plans...

Well, given the fact that so many story elements are borrowed from or at the least coincidentally similar to each other, it's small wonder that elements will re-occur from story to story. Keith, I'd love to hear James' reaction to the comparison myself - maybe on the WotC boards, or we can find some way to work it out here.

Krieg said:
Stating that Eberron glorifies satan (albeit unintentionally) is a wee bit more than an observation.

I'd also like to avoid letting this thread go into a similar path, if we can help it. Since the topic is recommending Eberron or not, I'd rather keep the focus on the setting and what each person likes or doesn't like, if we can.
 

Hey guys, I'm a little behind on my responses to all the email and PM discussions we're having about this topic, but I wanted to respond to Keith first. So bear with me. :)

Hellcow said:
I agree. Although I also agree that it is useful to know that his issues are based on religious beliefs and not mechanical issues with the world.
Definitely. I'm not opposed to you as a person nor am I disregarding your talent as a storyteller. I can tell that your cinematic eye brings a lot to the game, and I bet you'd be damn fun to have in a session on either side of the DM screen.

And you're exactly right about my issues with Eberron being based on my spiritual beliefs and what they say about some of the flavor elements of your setting. The mechanics look pretty rock solid straight across the board.

And that's what's so disheartening to me. After 30 years and three and a half editions of D&D we're getting some damn good game mechanics to play out pitched battles of high fantasy. But the clunky THAC0 system or multiclassing rules in prior editions isn't the 800 lb. gorilla that's cast a shadow over our hobby since nearly the very beginning.

The gorilla is the contrast between how D&D presents certain elements vs. how they're presented in the Bible. And I really hate that a world that has such freaking awesome ideas and opportunities for adventure has to go down that same road, and not only so, but take it to the next level.

I think you see where I'm coming from. The controversy of D&D has always been in its portrayal of things that according to the Bible, we are never to make provision for. The D&D/Bible issues that have been addressed and debated over for years. Who cares what Jack Chick or Pat Robertson or Joe Blow Christian Gamer says? What does the Bible say? Because whether its true or not, it is the benchmark for faith, direction, and moral guidance for millions or billions of people. Worshipping false gods, sorcery, consorting with familiar spirits and practicing divination are all addressed, and I think we all know how they're presented.

And now Eberron takes all of that and ups the ante by adding the imagery of the Dragon and beasts of the Apocalypse from Revelation, and the marks of the beasts for our heroes to play with. Three Dragons? Commerce that's controlled by those who bear the mark of the beasts? Ugh. I can't believe the game has now gone there too. I believe you when you say it wasn't intentional, but its a bummer nonetheless. And given D&D's history it does come across as irresponsible as well.

What if all of that was purged from the game? Do the designers and fans of the hobby really think it would kill it? What if WOTC opened up a Bible and sat down together and asked, "okay, what exactly does this say about the things that are contoversial in D&D? Do we really want to keep those in the game?"

What if all that magical flavor, the magic missile spells, the familiars, the communion with spirits, what if all of that was relegated to the bad guys? Imagine the news and publicity if D&D made a radical change like that. Imagine the 60 Minutes or Dateline expose. Don't think it wouldn't go unnoticed.

Why does D&D have to hold on with a vice like grip to issues that put people in moral quandries and nuke threads like this on messageboards? I like using my imagination and problem solving skills to roleplay and find ways to escape various traps, puzzles, and challenges. I want to be able to adventure in a place like Xen'Drik with badass drow shooting at my ass as I try to escape with an herbal antidote to the poison that has infected the queen. We don't need a creation myth that puts a positive spin on "Satanic" imagery to have that kind of fun. But its there, and I don't feel good about it, and I don't see the reason the designers of D&D need to be fanning the flames, knowingly or unknowingly.

I want to sit here and share stories with guys like Krieg and Teflon Billy and Brooklynknight, guys who obviously have different convictions and beliefs than me, and just kick back and recall a sweet roll made at the most dramatically appropriate time or a cinematic moment that was roleplayed to perfection, or a collosal in-game blunder that is still hilarious to this day, without feeling like the game itself endorses distasteful imagery or things I'm morally opposed to.

You know, the way people remember classic basketball games or rounds of Mario Kart or exchange war stories about particularly dramatic rounds of paintball.

After 30 years, is this kind of controversy really serving the hobby? You definitely don't need to be a Christian to answer that question.

Anyway, specifically addressing your contributions Keith, I think you have a lot of great ideas, both cinematically and mechanically. I'm bummed that I'm not going to feel comfortable hanging on to your setting, but I wish you the best.

I do want to ask one other thing, as a member of the inner circle of D&D's current direction in design, do you think that my misgivings are simply too radical to be addressed in official products? Looking forward to knowing your thoughts on the matter.

Take care.
 
Last edited:

It's been stated that the imagery you find offensive was not intentional. You could just remove it from your personal game if it's offensive to you. I think, personally, the connections you cite are tenuous at best, and misrepresents a pretty cool new setting.
 

Oh, and if anyone wants to continue the discussion in any way that wouldn't be appropriate for the thread or this forum, you may contact me at kailord74 AT yahoo DOT com.
 

Emiricol said:
Ultimately, Kai Lord didn't shametalk the setting in any way. He merely explained why he personally has an aversion to a particular aspect of the setting, and frankly, in tones more non-judgemental than I often manage to summon up in my own posts on whatever topic is at hand :)

Just wanted to make sure it is clear he isn't slandering the setting, or being malicious. At least, not that I've seen.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be slandering or malicious, but I do feel... offended a bit that warnings would be written on the book when selling it to a bookstore. That is not an attack or anything, just my personal feeling. Yeah I know you'd probably get the book cheaper, but still...
 

Kai Lord, the problem is that the stuff you're asking them to get rid of is pretty much a staple of modern fantasy (much of which comes from mythology that predates, or was developed independently from, Christianity). Yes, I do believe it would kill the game to remove good-aligned dragons, or non-evil arcane magic, or anything like that. Sure, people should have the option to remove it--as you clearly have done--and I'll bet it makes for an interesting game. But removing it from the rules would restrict that to being the only possible style of game, and that's simply unacceptable. These things have become part of fantasy, completely seperate from any religious concerns.

To put it another way...

Modifying D&D to fit the precepts of any given religion is no more valid than modifying it to fit the precepts of any other given religion. Going through the Bible while making D&D is no more viable a prospect than going through the Quran, or the Hindu Vedas, or one of the various books on Wicca. Better to make the game based on the precepts of fantasy as they are accepted by most religiously-neutral readers, and allow individuals to season to taste.
 


Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top