Lonely Tylenol
First Post
Kai Lord said:
I would be very offended if someone decided to consult the Bible, or any other religous text, in order to self-censor for the purposes of avoiding making religious nuts feel paranoid. If you don't like the book, don't read it. If you don't like the game don't play it. You chose to adopt a system of belief that bars you from participating in certain activities. Muslims avoid drawing pictures due to the ban on graven images (which led to a rich tradition of mosaic art), but it would be unreasonable for them to demand that everyone else give up the fine arts to avoid offending Muslim sensibilities. It is just as unreasonable to demand that we write our games to fit your sensibilities.
Well, we didn't make this an issue. Religious people keep showing up and telling us that what we're doing is unholy and demanding that we stop. We tell them to get lost, the argument heats up, and the moderators show up. And it's not just D&D. How many threads in how many boards get closed every day because of religious arguments? There's a reason why many boards have a ban on religious discussion. I'm sure that you could find Satan in any book you want to (I know people can and do), but you chose to find it in D&D. Don't bring your prejudice here and expect us to give it any kind of weight. Go start a christian gaming board, write christian game supplements, and play the game the way you want to. Don't demand that the rest of us play under a christian-approved gaming paradigm.
It's not there, and they're not fanning the flames. YOU put it there, not Keith, not Wizards of the Coast. You did. You decided to interpret the game world mythology in a way that offends you.
Even if subconsciously Keith drew on the Western culture he's a part of, which is suffused with a history of christian culture, to write his works, and some "satanic" stuff crept in, so what? Why should I give a rat's ass whether you don't like Keith's stuff? I will decide for myself whether I have a problem with the mythology of Western culture. If I happen to like that mythology, and I can relate to the imagery that was passed down since the dawn of my own civilization, I don't appreciate someone coming along and telling me that I have to cut ties to my own culture because it might be "evil."
For heaven's sake, there's a rich history in Western culture that dates back to ancient Babylon, and it contains a hell of a lot of powerful imagery! If we want to capture some of the storytelling power of that culture, we're going to use its imagery. The reason why we want to use this imagery, why it's a positive thing, is that we already relate to it because our culture has been determined by its history. You are asking us to abandon our cultural history...which is the seed from which all Western fantasy fiction was grown. That's a lot to ask of a fantasy gaming community!
And besides, why shouldn't I have fun with a game that puts a positive spin on satanic imagery? Why shouldn't I have fun in any way I want to that doesn't hurt anyone else? Because I'll go to hell? I don't believe that. Leave my fun out of your religion.
That's actually too bad, because if you continue to attempt to damn us and tell us to play the game the way you want us to play it, you're going to run up against a wall. To use another example, if someone says that gay marriage is bad and immoral, but hangs out with people who are gay and married, that person is going to run into trouble. If all your friends have a belief system that is impossible to reconcile with your own, you're going to run into trouble.
There's no reason why you can't come here and chat about RPGs without it being a problem. But you bring your own baggage with you, and then expect us to kowtow to it. You're the only one to blame for your feelings of moral opposition. You decided to be offended and opposed to the imagery of the game.
Remember that there is a difference between opposition to a book because it runs against a particular set of religious beliefs and opposition to a book because it might encourage immoral behaviour. You might have a case to make if you can prove D&D engenders immoral behaviour. But if you're "morally opposed" to something that does not engender immoral behaviour, you have no argument except "I say so." And that's just not going to cut it with anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. Especially because D&D players, almost by definition, do not think that D&D engenders immoral behaviour.
The only reason why this is a controversy is because religious bigots have made it a controversy. If the bigots would leave us the hell alone, there wouldn't be a problem. Why should we change to suit the small-minded and the hate-filled? They came to our playground and threw dung on the climbers. We're not going to just go home and not play there anymore.
You believe this. You want me to believe this. I don't believe this. End of story. I'm not a christian, and I don't care what you do at your own table. If you don't want to play a game that has sorcery or summoning in it, go write one yourself. If there is this multitudinous majority of christian gamers that you believe exists, you ought to do well in that market. Perhaps you'll outsell D&D. But don't come into a game that's been played a certain way for 30 years, and has been very well received by its players (and not so well-received by bigots), and tell us we have to change to suit your prejudices.
Sorcery and the summoning of familiar spirits is not absolutely evil. I have exactly the same authority to claim this as you have to claim the above. Which is to say, "I believe this is true."
"They don't agree with me, so their opinions are worthless."
Please, don't go down that alley. There's nothing but darkness at the end.
Give me one good reason why Wizards should let anyone change D&D to be christian-friendly in the particular flavour you support. And then give me one good reason why it shouldn't be changed to suit the sensibilities of Muslims, Baptists, Mormons, Hindus, Catholics, Shintoists, Presbyterians, Atheists, and every other group that might have a problem with the way the game is played. Because every argument you can make to have the game changed to suit your beliefs is an argument to change the game to suit any other belief system.
What you are suggesting is censorship. You want to edit out the things that personally offend you so you don't have to read them. Well, tough. Part of living in a free society is dealing with pluralism. Again, if you don't like the way D&D is written, go write your own books and sell them to the "silent majority" of christians that share your beliefs. But don't tell us what to do with our game that we love, and don't badmouth christians that disagree with you. What makes your opinion have more validity than that of any other christian?
You can't please everybody. That's why there are so many christian sects in the world. They can't even agree on what the bible says! If christians can't decide what the bible says, why should anyone believe a particular christian's opinion on what should or should not be in a D&D book? If we were to ask every single person on the planet whether they were offended by something in the book, there would be no book left. There would be no game. Because we can't please everyone, we instead set down some basic standards of multicultural decency and don't try to please everyone. Instead, we try to write a good game, which Keith has done to much acclaim. If he had a bunch of censors breathing down his neck we wouldn't have Eberron. We wouldn't have D&D at all. We wouldn't even be able to play cards or listen to music or dance. These things are immoral to someone, somewhere. Why should we care if we offend them by playing our game?
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