Would you use Armor as DR Why? Why use it for AC?

[DrNilesCrane]

I've been playing Iron Heroes with the variable armor DR system (in which it doesn't provide any AC boost, although shields still do and do not add any DR). I found that the characters generally got fairly chewed up; more so than if we would have had the AC instead of the DR. Which isn't to say that's a bad thing: each individual hit did less, but the impact on critical hits was neglibile. Crits are more frequent (easier to confirm) and only do a bit less damage, so they became more defining in a fight.

I'm about to try the Unearthed Arcana version without a class defense bonus adjustment, to see how it works.

 

[DonTadow]

We tried it last night, and I still need to make adjustments to natural armor I'm finding out. The characters whom have natural armor seemed to have an easier time as opposed to those without natural armor.

Any suggestions on fixes for natural armor? theres the suggestions from the unearthed arcana, but I don't want to stack that with another dr system.

I"m thinking of allowing characters with natural armor perhaps no natural armor in lue of an extra armory feat or two... not really sure if thats a good idea either

 

[Raven Crowking]

In my setup, armour has both AC and DR. Natural armour has no DR. Classes also gain defense bonuses to make them harder to hit...but the "Max Dex Bonus" is replaced by "Max Dex + Class Bonus".


RC

 

[Rothe]

Hi all. First post here at ENWorld. Thought I might jump in as I've been using DR for armor for quite some time. By DR I assume damage resistance, i.e. the armor reduces damage received. Although mine is a homebrew approach, I thought it might add some insight even if much of it has been mentioned above. My personal experiences.

General Observations:
(1) I agree that armor providing DR makes for better simulation.
(2) By going with DR, one can also simulate another aspect of historical weapons: penetration. Several historical weapons were designed to pentrate armor. They wouldn't necessarily do any more damage against an unarmored target but they were able to pierce armor. Thus, I rate weapons with a penetration value as the amount of DR they can ignore. Natural weapons, e.g., teeth may not have much. Hence a man in plate armor need not fear the bite of a dog, but a poinard is another matter.
(3) Originally I came to this armor=DR from armor=AC. To provide a mechanism for making a higher level character/creature harder to hit, I base the chance to hit on the skill/level differential between the attacker and defender. For example, two level 1 opponents have an equal chance to hit each other in melee, a level 2 finds it easier to hit a level 1, and a level 1 finds it harder to hit a level 2. In the end, I assign attack numbers and defense numbers.
(4) As I think I saw above, one detriment I also impose to heavy armor is loss of initiative. As I use a apply damage immediately system this can make a difference.
(5) Another detriment, is armor can make noise. I use this in my stealth system as another detriment to armor, especially metal armor. This opened up an area of specialty designed armor to reduce noise.
(6) Initially, I tried to keep track of damage to the armor. This became a record keeping nightmare. I ended up just letting the armor remain undamaged unless it suffered a "critical" hit.
(7) Initially, I also tried a hit location system. Also a record keeping problem. What I now do is use a location system (basically 34 locations on a human body) for custom armor building, then an average armor value is calculated. The individaul armor values are still there if that level of detail becomes needed. This is actually not as cumbersome as it seems.
(8) Shields. I allow the DR of the shield to be averaged into the average armor value. Shields also reduce somewhat the chance of being hit (the old armor=AC). I also have a rule for covering behind a shield. Metal shields are heavy but give a good DR and can take a a fair amount of damage without being destroyed if you cover behind them. Light wooden shields, while light, provide some protection from arrow fire and a "AC" bounus but little DR and do not provide the best cover.
(9) Lastly, a DR + penetration provides more options for spells, guns etc. It allows certain weapons to become more "powerfull" by increasing penetration instead of just total damage. For example, for firearms, bullets from small caliber arms don't do much more damage than a dagger but they have very high penetrations versus melee type armor and they have a much higher chance of scoring a "critical" hit.

Anyway, my two coppers for what they are worth.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Armour as DR is best paired with a base defense bonus (i.e., dodge bonus) option, I believe.

Class-based defense and Damage Threshold-- it makes the armor worth a lot more than knocking off two or three measly points of damage.

I'm thinking of using a system with scaling Fort DC, and armor value splitting between DR and bonuses to Damage Threshold saves. Enhancement bonus would contribute to both, at a 1/2 and 1/1 ratio, respectively.

Other posters are right, that accomodations need to be made for finesse fighters in such a system. Making the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike a Fighter bonus feat (based on Finesse and Expertise, in my system) is a good step, and I'm seriously considering allowing critical hits to bypass DR. (Not the Fort save bonus; the extra damage covers that.)

I've been experimenting with various systems of Armor Piercing weapons, but they seem to be too much of a hassle. Make armor piercing a function of the critical range-- and allow criticals to bypass armor even when the wearer is immune to them. Fortification might negate this; not sure.

edit: That was... obvious. The "Armor Piercing" quality is what allows a weapon to ignore armor on critical hits-- with other weapons having to batter through the defenses even on a critical.

Personally, I think a called shot system of sorts is also required when standard armour can provide DR 8/-, or even greater. ... even with a coup de grace for that matter). And so on.

Coup de Grace should definitely bypass armor. It bypasses armor in the rules-as-written by making the attack an automatic hit.

I don't know; if critical hits are allowed to bypass armor, that should be chance enough for an untrained dagger fighter against a person in full-plate. In real life, they'd stand no chance whatsoever unless they were attempting a Coup de Grace.

Throw in Sneak Attack, Insightful Strike, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical, and the dedicated knife-fighter is capable of cutting a fully armored warrior to ribbons-- and if he has a higher AC due to Dexterity and class-based bonuses, he might even do so without taking a scratch, unless he's facing a similarly experienced opponent.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hi all. First post here at ENWorld. Thought I might jump in as I've been using DR for armor for quite some time. By DR I assume damage resistance, i.e. the armor reduces damage received. Although mine is a homebrew approach, I thought it might add some insight even if much of it has been mentioned above. My personal experiences.

Interesting stuff!


RC

 

[Rothe]

Interesting stuff!


RC

Thanks RC.

 

[Nyaricus]

Interesting stuff!


RC

Seconded for truth!

Welcome to the boards, Rothe! Hope you like your stay

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Isn't it obvious why armor is added to AC?
AC means armor class, duh!

j/k I really have nothing new to add to the discussion. Except possibly stating that if armor is DR then AC should be call defense like it already is in many d20 games.

In Ken Hood's GnG system armor is used as DR worked pretty well but it was a more realistic system over all.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Also in Ken Hood's system, combat was geared to be more random, using a roll for defense and attack, and to be more deadly giving each creature 25 'hit points' and making a higher attack roll do more damage, and to give larger creatures an advantage over smaller creatures, giving them a substantial bonus both to damage dealt and damage soaked... So... Ken Hood's system, while really good, is hell on critter CRs, particularly for larger critters, who can put a serious hurt on a party in a hurry.

I am using Ken Hood's GnG combat system in an upcoming campaign, and have used it before.

Later
silver