Wow, do I not understand Wildshape....

[Nail]

I know, I know. This sounds like a personal problem to you, but....

If a druid wildshapes into an animal with more than one natural attack, how many attacks does the druid get, and at what attack bonus?

Let's be "simple" here, and say it's a 9th level druid, wildshaping into a Dire Lion (large animal, 2 claws & 1 bite, new Str 25).

I thought the poor, underpowered druid would get 2 claws (primary) and 1 bite attack (secondary), plus one extra claw attack, as the druids BAB is +6. That would be: +12/+12/+7 (claws 1d6 +7) & +7 (bite 1d8+3).

My players say I'm sadly mistaken. ...Oh, alright, they're actually asking what kind o' dope I'm smokin'......

They seem to think the druid would only get two attacks, and only because the druid's BAB is high enough. Either two claws or two bites: +12/+7. The Alter Self spell has some language in the bottom of the fifth paragraph that seems to imply that.

Who's right?

 

[Nail]

As a related question: Why don't dire animals, with high enough BAB, get multiple attacks? Look at the Dire Bear, for instance.

 

[Celtavian]

re

As a related question: Why don't dire animals, with high enough BAB, get multiple attacks? Look at the Dire Bear, for instance.

Special rules for animals. They only receive natural attacks. There not really trained fighters with intelligence. I think the limited natural attacks reflects instinctive fighting ability.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Do you have access to the MotW splat book? If yes, use the wild shape version printed there (the examples for WS included). You won't have problems with attacks, Animal Growth and polymorphed equipment anymore. It's easy and balanced. The druid gets the extraordinary abilities of the animal form though, this includes the TOTALLY OVERPOWERED (warning: sarcasm) abilities of blindsense, sprint, jet, scent and ink cloud... The only problem I could see with the MotW WS if your DM don't likes the shifter prc.

 

[The Souljourner]

Alter Self specifically says that you get the attack progression of the thing you change into, so the druid would, indeed, get claw/claw/bite. You may use iterative attacks as your primary attack, and then all other limbs/attacks are treated as secondary attacks. So if you had +11 BAB and claw/claw/bite and could wield a longsword, you could get +11/+6/+1 with the longsword and then +6 with a claw and a bite (secondary attacks are always at -5).

I'm not sure, but I think this is from MM, but I know I've seen it somewhere in 3.5.

-The Souljourner

 

[Darklone]

Yes, but I've never seen examples with iterative attacks using natural weapons. A good example for using weapons (with iterative attacsk) and natural weapons as secondary attacks at -5 is the Minotaur.

 

[Nail]

Thanks for the responses, but this isn't quite cleared up for me yet.

Dark Dragon, I'm using 3.5e (for now). Consider it a sort of "test drive". I'll add in house rules, reversions back to 3.0e, and "Sage Advice" as necessary, but only after I've thoroughly explored the 3.5e rule set. After all, these WotC guys spent some time on this revision, and claim that it "works fine". I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Call me optimistic.

Alter Self specifically says that you get the attack progression of the thing you change into...

Nope. It does not specificly say that. It says you get the natural attacks....usually. Here is the relevant text:

Alter Self
You acquire the physical qualities.... includ[ing] natural size, mundane movement capabilities ...., natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), ...... A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Emphasis mine, of course.

Questions:

• What qualifies as "extra" limbs? How does that answer change if your race has, say, 4 arms instead of 2?
• If you have the natural weapons, does that mean you use them? Humans have 2 arms, but they are not allowed two hand slaps per round.
• Why does mutliple attacks from high BAB only apply to character classes?
• How does high BAB from character class interact with high BAB from monster HD? Why the difference?

 

[smetzger]

When using natural attacks one does not get an increased number of attacks due to BAB (unless your a Monk). Take a look at elementals or Dragons or any monster with a high BAB.

Any form that uses natural attacks does not get more attacks due to BAB, therefore a Druid uses the attack sequence of the creature he turns into, but substitutes his own BAB in place of the creatures BAB.

 

[Pielorinho]

I can tell you how we play it; wihle I believe this is as close as one can get to the letter and spirit of the rules, I can't cite specific passages. It feels pretty balanced, however.

There are two ways to fight: like a beast, and like a person.

The advantage of fighting like a beast is that you can make a fair number of attacks with different weapons. Similar weapons have similar attack bonuses: if your claws are your main weapon, you atack with each claw at your full attack bonus, for example. And it's possible to get 8 or more attacks in a round, given the right appendages (e.g., a giant octopus).

The disadvantage to fighting as a beast is this: no iterative attacks. No matter how big and nasty you are, you get one attack with each weapon.

The advantage of fighting like a person is just the opposite: the better the fighter you are, the more iterative attacks you get.

The disadvantage of fighting like a person is that you have serious problems with using multiple weapons: the more weapons you try to use, the worse off you'll end up fighting.

_________________________

That said, I let someone who has multiple natural weapons choose whether to fight as a person or a beast, taking the advantages and disadvantages associated with either form. Want iterative attacks? Choose one of your natural weapons to fight with, and you'll get them -- or you can suffer the penalties for two-weapon fighting and use more than one natural weapon and still gain iterative attacks. Want good multiple attacks? Give up your iterative attacks.

One last note: if you fight like a beast, you don't get the cool stuff for being a monk. You can't fight like a beast and gain a monk's increased unarmed damage, stunning fist, or the like. I rationalize that by saying that stuff is all part of a specific, person-style fighting method. I rule that way because otherwise monks polymorphed into giant octopi become absurdly overpowered.

Daniel

 

[DrSpunj]

• If you have the natural weapons, does that mean you use them? Humans have 2 arms, but they are not allowed two hand slaps per round.

I'm as confused by your original questions, but why can't Humans make two hand slaps per round?

Using the normal two-weapon fighting rules I'd allow any non-Monk to make two unarmed attacks with those mondo penalties. Having Two-Weapon Fighting reduces those penalties, but it's not necessary to make the attempt.

Not very effective, certainly not overpowered, but I think the rules allow it to happen. I'm sure some kind soul will try and straighten me out if I'm wrong again!

DrSpunj