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D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

That is still faulty logic.
A wood elf with a twisted leg would still have more dexterous hands than a baseline human or be more dexterous than a human with a similar condition. And a dwarven circus performer would still be a dwarf and thus not as dexterous than a elven performer with similar background. But he would have better endurance.
Being a circus performer does not change your biology.
That's entirely logical, but the in-game result is either:

1. The mechanical difference is too small to care, so you have a +1 dex but it doesn't affect rolls and elves don't actually feel more dexterous, or

2. The difference is important, so people only play dexterity classes as elves and endurance classes as dwarves (ie there would never be a dwarf acrobat) not because it's illegal but because you're just going to be bad at you job which is bad for the team, or

3. the difference is big enough to be noticeable to some people and not to others, so some people have reaction 1 and some have reaction 2. This is what 5e does.

If the dex bonus isn't enough to make everyone think it's stupid to play a dwarf archer, it isn't consistently informing the fiction.
 

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Ixal

Adventurer
That's entirely logical, but the in-game result is either:

1. The mechanical difference is too small to care, so you have a +1 dex but it doesn't affect rolls and elves don't actually feel more dexterous, or

2. The difference is important, so people only play dexterity classes as elves and endurance classes as dwarves (ie there would never be a dwarf acrobat) not because it's illegal but because you're just going to be bad at you job which is bad for the team, or

3. the difference is big enough to be noticeable to some people and not to others, so some people have reaction 1 and some have reaction 2. This is what 5e does.

If the dex bonus isn't enough to make everyone think it's stupid to play a dwarf archer, it isn't consistently informing the fiction.
Again faulty logic.
Not every person only plays optimized race/class combinations as they build their characters not based on a combat role like they would in a video game but according to a story concept.
 

Bolares

Hero
Again faulty logic.
Not every person only plays optimized race/class combinations as they build their characters not based on a combat role like they would in a video game but according to a story concept.
Assuming that only optimizers care about their ability scores is also "faulty logic" as you say....

Also, there is a false dichotomy here between optmizers and people play according to a story concept. That's a lot of faulty logic :p
 

Ixal

Adventurer
Assuming that only optimizers care about their ability scores is also "faulty logic" as you say....

Also, there is a false dichotomy here between optmizers and people play according to a story concept. That's a lot of faulty logic :p
Only an optimizer would refuse to play a unoptimised race/class combination which is what point 2 represents.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
That is still faulty logic.
A wood elf with a twisted leg would still have more dexterous hands than a baseline human or be more dexterous than a human with a similar condition. And a dwarven circus performer would still be a dwarf and thus not as dexterous than a elven performer with similar background. But he would have better endurance.
Being a circus performer does not change your biology.

Why are the elve's hands dexterous? Nothing about him being a wise old intelligent elf requires him to have good hand-eye coordination.

And the dwarf isn't being compared to an elvish performer. He's a wise olf dwarf being compared to the wise old elf, he's just more the practical wisdom than the scholarly type.

Besides, if we want to bring biology into this, they are both level 20 have a 20 in all stats, which would make them equal. The elf still isn't superior, even if he thinks he is.
 




It's not often that I see most people play any race noticeably different from any other race. :)
I get it, but dwarves have a lot of personality and cultural traits that show up in every game (aside form deliberate subversions), elves are always elves, teiflings are always teiflings, gnomes are always annoying. But the only race where subrace seems to get played out (in my experience) is elves, because they are pretty different.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And why is it a problem to do it this way instead? Letting a hippo man be different from an elf or dwarf... by the fact that he's a hippo man not a dwarf or elf. The ASIs don't lend themselves to that. I mean, imagine for a second they ended up with +2 strength +2 Con, they would still be different than a Mountain Dwarf, wouldn't they?
Racial stat bonuses are there to reinforce what the race in question is. Other races and their bonuses are entirely irrelevant.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The funny bit being that folks griping about it can generally still have those ASIs in the way they are used to. The general population of the various races can be built assuming the ASIs of the past, and the old stereotypes they want can still broadly hold in their own worlds. Put the +2 and +1 in the traditional spots, and you are good to go.
What are the traditional bonuses for the new races that don't have any listed? At this point I'm going to need to sit down and figure out each new race one by one. They should have just gone the same route as alignment and done something like, "Typically Giff have +2 Str, +1 Con."
Because, heavens forefend we write the rules that are more flexible, and allow more people to play how they want...
Flexible rules are what I just described. As the UA stands, only people who don't want racial bonuses get to play how they want. The rest of us will have to create new rules and figure bonuses out if we want to play that way.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Only an optimizer would refuse to play a unoptimised race/class combination which is what point 2 represents.
This is not accurate. The 2 points represents what ability the race is best at and nothing more. People then either optimize or don't when they select that race.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why are the elve's hands dexterous? Nothing about him being a wise old intelligent elf requires him to have good hand-eye coordination.
Requirement is irrelevant. That wise old intelligent elf will be more dexterous than a comparable human.
Besides, if we want to bring biology into this, they are both level 20 have a 20 in all stats, which would make them equal. The elf still isn't superior, even if he thinks he is.
And this is also irrelevant. It doesn't matter that a 20th level individual was eventually able to match what the elf did at level 1 with his 18+2 dex. Racial bonuses are for the race as a whole, which the PCs are a part of.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Racial stat bonuses are there to reinforce what the race in question is. Other races and their bonuses are entirely irrelevant.

Not when the posters point is "without these racial stat bonuses they are exactly like these other races, including ones that would get the same racial stat bonuses" then it is highly relevant.

Edit:


What are the traditional bonuses for the new races that don't have any listed? At this point I'm going to need to sit down and figure out each new race one by one. They should have just gone the same route as alignment and done something like, "Typically Giff have +2 Str, +1 Con."

Flexible rules are what I just described. As the UA stands, only people who don't want racial bonuses get to play how they want. The rest of us will have to create new rules and figure bonuses out if we want to play that way.

Hey look, you did one! I'll go ahead and throw some more your way.

Autognome: +2 Con, +1 Int
Plasmoid: +2 Con, +1 Wis
Hazodeed: +2 Dex, +1 Cha
Astral Elf: +2 Dex, +1 wis
Thri-Kreen: +2 Wis, +1 Dex


You're welcome.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Requirement is irrelevant. That wise old intelligent elf will be more dexterous than a comparable human.

No they won't. Even using Racial ASI's this is false.

And this is also irrelevant. It doesn't matter that a 20th level individual was eventually able to match what the elf did at level 1 with his 18+2 dex. Racial bonuses are for the race as a whole, which the PCs are a part of.

Okay, then the dwarf with their 18+0 did it at level 4. Again, if it is "by biology, a dwarf shall never be an elf's equal in dexterity" You are wrong. Flat wrong. Obviously wrong. This position has zero support in the game, as it stands.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not when the posters point is "without these racial stat bonuses they are exactly like these other races, including ones that would get the same racial stat bonuses" then it is highly relevant.

Edit:




Hey look, you did one! I'll go ahead and throw some more your way.

Autognome: +2 Con, +1 Int
Plasmoid: +2 Con, +1 Wis
Hazodeed: +2 Dex, +1 Cha
Astral Elf: +2 Dex, +1 wis
Thri-Kreen: +2 Wis, +1 Dex


You're welcome.
Cool, but I don't think those are correct. I'd rather have the experts do it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No they won't. Even using Racial ASI's this is false.
+2 is greater than +1.
Okay, then the dwarf with their 18+0 did it at level 4. Again, if it is "by biology, a dwarf shall never be an elf's equal in dexterity" You are wrong. Flat wrong. Obviously wrong. This position has zero support in the game, as it stands.
The dwarf had to be a PC to do it, which means 99.999% of dwarves won't ever be able to match the most dexterous elf.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Autognome: +2 Con, +1 Int
Plasmoid: +2 Con, +1 Wis
Hazodeed: +2 Dex, +1 Cha
Astral Elf: +2 Dex, +1 wis
Thri-Kreen: +2 Wis, +1 Dex
I think you got Autognomes and Hadozee right, but everything else wrong.

Plasmoids should absolutely get some bonus to Dexterity. Probably a +2 Dex, +1 Con.
Astral Elves obviously should get a +2 Dex and +1 Int. They live on a mental plane where Intelligence determines how quickly you can move in it. They'd adapt to that.
And Thri-Kreen should get a bonus to Constitution. Probably a +2 Con and +1 Dex, or a +1 Con, +1 Dex, and +1 to Wis.
And Giff should get a +1 to Dex, Con, and Str.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think you got Autognomes and Hadozee right, but everything else wrong.

Plasmoids should absolutely get some bonus to Dexterity. Probably a +2 Dex, +1 Con.
Astral Elves obviously should get a +2 Dex and +1 Int. They live on a mental plane where Intelligence determines how quickly you can move in it. They'd adapt to that.
And Thri-Kreen should get a bonus to Constitution. Probably a +2 Con and +1 Dex, or a +1 Con, +1 Dex, and +1 to Wis.
And Giff should get a +1 to Dex, Con, and Str.
Thri-Kreen have historically been very agile, getting +2 dex in both 2e and 3e.
 

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