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D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

I think we can all agree ASIs are done. At the game store the other day the Adventure League group asked: "Why even have them?" It's the direction WotC wanted, and once published, well, it becomes law. Say what you want about DMs controlling the table, but that too, is changing direction. (I'm not sure it was ever really there in the first place, as my experience has always been an arrangement between the players and DM, even when we were 15.)
Point is, there is no need to argue about ASIs. They are done.
 

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
+2 is greater than +1.

The dwarf had to be a PC to do it, which means 99.999% of dwarves won't ever be able to match the most dexterous elf.

But... we're only talking about PCs. You can make sure that the 99.999% of a race conform to whatever "biological" story you have in mind for them - with their NPC stat-block. (Of course, WotC often doesn't do that. A human "scout" is the same as an elf "scout", but that's a different "problem" - one that I don't like, but I guess I understand why they do it that way).

For PCs, who as you say, represent 0.0001% of the population, what difference does it make if they can pop a point (or two) into a non-standard ability?
 

Mort

Legend
Say what you want about DMs controlling the table, but that too, is changing direction. (I'm not sure it was ever really there in the first place, as my experience has always been an arrangement between the players and DM, even when we were 15.)

I'm quite curious about this statement. 5e gives almost all of the table control to the DM. Even the small bit players had in 3e re: crafting their own items thus allowing them to shape that portion of the game? gone.

And let's not forget the 5e extremely DM centric mantra - "Rulings not rules..." - which certainly has not changed.

Even the bit about static stat assignment - the DM control's BOTH the races introduced AND the books used. It is ultimately the DMs choice if this is even a thing (I suppose in a few years once the core books adopt the fluid racial stats that will be altered - but even there the DM can declare the old way governs, and if not, outlaw certain combinations - whatever deemed appropriate).

So I'm genuinely curious where the change in direction is?
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
Cool, but I don't think those are correct. I'd rather have the experts do it.

Why aren't they correct?


+2 is greater than +1.

And there is zero mechanical difference between a 16 and a 17. They might as well be the same number.

The dwarf had to be a PC to do it, which means 99.999% of dwarves won't ever be able to match the most dexterous elf.

Nope. Nothing in the rules says that I can't have a level 4 dwarven NPC
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I think you got Autognomes and Hadozee right, but everything else wrong.

Plasmoids should absolutely get some bonus to Dexterity. Probably a +2 Dex, +1 Con.

I considered a dex bonus, because manipulating multiple limbs, but I went with Wisdom due to their incredible perception (they don't have a single auditory-visual system, their entire body would act to hear and see) and the spatial awareness needed to manuever their bodies.

Astral Elves obviously should get a +2 Dex and +1 Int. They live on a mental plane where Intelligence determines how quickly you can move in it. They'd adapt to that.

Ah, forgot about that detail of the Astral Plane. I was remembering that they went to the Astral to be with their gods, so I pictured them as very clerical and zen. Hence the +1 Wisdom

And Thri-Kreen should get a bonus to Constitution. Probably a +2 Con and +1 Dex, or a +1 Con, +1 Dex, and +1 to Wis.

I thought about Con, it was my first choice actually. But, we generally think of Con in terms of things like holding breathe and surviving toxins, and insects are actually worse at that then endoskeletal beings. Actually, if they suffer damage to their exoskeleton, they are generally dead. So, I could see them being more fragile than you'd expect.

And Giff should get a +1 to Dex, Con, and Str.

Nah, I see no reason to give them dex at all. I figure you are thinking guns, but I actually would instead use the "Cumbersome" property from the 3pp source of Grimhollow. They have weapons like the Blunderbuss, that do to the kick, requires strength on the attack and damage rolls. I think that sort of weapon fits with the Giff love of explosives, and it makes for a fun type of weapon where you just need to hold it in place and it devastates an enemy.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I get it, but dwarves have a lot of personality and cultural traits that show up in every game (aside form deliberate subversions), elves are always elves, teiflings are always teiflings, gnomes are always annoying. But the only race where subrace seems to get played out (in my experience) is elves, because they are pretty different.
All I can say is that I've never seen much difference in any games I've played, at least not consistently. If not for the occasional difference in accent or reference I wouldn't know a wood elf from a dragonborn. Dwarves and half orcs tend to stand out a bit more, but even those aren't always depicted in any way distinguishable from a human.

Which is not to say that people don't roleplay or have unique PCs, just that it's hard to really depict a different species.

Heck, try as I might, even as a DM most of the difference is set dressing. Which, end of the day, is fine. We aren't creating epic fiction, we're just having fun playing a game.
 

All I can say is that I've never seen much difference in any games I've played, at least not consistently. If not for the occasional difference in accent or reference I wouldn't know a wood elf from a dragonborn. Dwarves and half orcs tend to stand out a bit more, but even those aren't always depicted in any way distinguishable from a human.

Which is not to say that people don't roleplay or have unique PCs, just that it's hard to really depict a different species.

Heck, try as I might, even as a DM most of the difference is set dressing. Which, end of the day, is fine. We aren't creating epic fiction, we're just having fun playing a game.
If your standard is "doesn't act in any way like a human" - yeah, no one's going to meet that because they're being played by humans. But I've found very average roleplayers can make races distinct enough that I don't forget what race they're playing - but very rarely make subraces that distinct.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But... we're only talking about PCs. You can make sure that the 99.999% of a race conform to whatever "biological" story you have in mind for them - with their NPC stat-block. (Of course, WotC often doesn't do that. A human "scout" is the same as an elf "scout", but that's a different "problem" - one that I don't like, but I guess I understand why they do it that way).

For PCs, who as you say, represent 0.0001% of the population, what difference does it make if they can pop a point (or two) into a non-standard ability?
Yes, we are talking about PCs who are a part of the race and would get the same bonuses.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And there is zero mechanical difference between a 16 and a 17. They might as well be the same number.
So you think that nobody ever rolls an even stat? It's only going to be 15+1 and 15+2? Because from where I sit, 16+2 is better than 16+1 AND even 15+2 is mechanically better than 15+1, since it only takes a +1 to get from 17 to 18. You can pick a feat AND get the 18 if you're the elf. The human is screwed with his measly +1.
Nothing in the rules says that I can't have a level 4 dwarven NPC
That's not how NPCs are designed. You have to as DM opt into that for specific NPCs.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Yes, we are talking about PCs who are a part of the race and would get the same bonuses.
Yes, I understand that. The point is PCs are the very rare exceptions (that make them PCs) - so maybe they sometimes (and really, there is a very low chance that someone is dropping, say an 8 Dex on an elf, or an 8 Str on an orc, for example, at least not without a major character plot-point to go with it!) don't fit the standard racial mold?

At any rate, I understand your position - I didn't like it at first either - but I'm comin' around. In the very least, I don't think it's a big deal that WotC wants to go that way. At best, there might be a few more characters that break the standard mold. (Some of them will be great; some of them will suck, I'm sure. So what else is new?)
 

Scribe

Hero
I think you got Autognomes and Hadozee right, but everything else wrong.

Plasmoids should absolutely get some bonus to Dexterity. Probably a +2 Dex, +1 Con.
Astral Elves obviously should get a +2 Dex and +1 Int. They live on a mental plane where Intelligence determines how quickly you can move in it. They'd adapt to that.
And Thri-Kreen should get a bonus to Constitution. Probably a +2 Con and +1 Dex, or a +1 Con, +1 Dex, and +1 to Wis.
And Giff should get a +1 to Dex, Con, and Str.
Imagine if instead of a bunch of 2/1 stats, they actually got weird, 2/2, 1/1/1, 2221, -4....
 



Chaosmancer

Legend
So you think that nobody ever rolls an even stat? It's only going to be 15+1 and 15+2? Because from where I sit, 16+2 is better than 16+1 AND even 15+2 is mechanically better than 15+1, since it only takes a +1 to get from 17 to 18. You can pick a feat AND get the 18 if you're the elf. The human is screwed with his measly +1.

OF course people roll stats, but the moment you start rolling stats you can throw your "biological superiority" out the window. Sure, maybe that elf rolls a 16 Dexterity and gets a +2. Or maybe they roll an 8 and the human rolls a 17. Or maybe they roll a 16 and the human rolls an 18.

You end up moving from "elves are more dexterous than humans" to "Elves are temporarily more dexterous than humans if you roll stats, and they both roll the same even number for their dexterity score" which is a rather weaker claim

That's not how NPCs are designed. You have to as DM opt into that for specific NPCs.

So, actually, I was a bit wrong in what I said when I said "Nothing in the rules says that I can't have a level 4 dwarven NPC" what I should have said was "There are explicitly rules for having leveled npcs who get ASIs". Because I forgot about Tasha's Sidekick rules.

And, therefore, again, to your assertion that "The dwarf had to be a PC to do it," you are flat wrong. You do not need to be a PC to have ASIs.

Now, do you need to opt-in to using those rules? Yes. You also need to opt-in to actually giving you NPC ability scores in the first place. And you need to opt-in to giving them racial asi's. So, we are somehow fine opting in to two other rule sets, but as soon as it challenges your position, it is suddenly bad to opt-in to rules?

Color me surprised.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
OF course people roll stats, but the moment you start rolling stats you can throw your "biological superiority" out the window.
You can take YOUR biological superiority and shove it. Nothing I'm saying is about superiority. After that I'm not even going to read the rest of your post. You crossed the line in a huge way there.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
You can take YOUR biological superiority and shove it. Nothing I'm saying is about superiority. After that I'm not even going to read the rest of your post. You crossed the line in a huge way there.

The other poster was saying this was about biology. But hey, ignore an entire post that refutes the points. Because "I'm better at this thing" can't possibly mean "I'm superior at this thing" It isn't like those are synonyms and I just picked a synonym instead of saying "biological better than"
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The other poster was saying this was about biology. But hey, ignore an entire post that refutes the points. Because "I'm better at this thing" can't possibly mean "I'm superior at this thing" It isn't like those are synonyms and I just picked a synonym instead of saying "biological better than"
Then take that crap to your discussion with him. Nothing I said involves any sort of biological superiority. You can't tell me if +2 dex(elf) is superior to +2 con(dwarf) or +2 str(goliath). None of the races is superior to any others in any argument of mine. Don't accuse me of that again.
 
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Azuresun

Adventurer
If your standard is "doesn't act in any way like a human" - yeah, no one's going to meet that because they're being played by humans. But I've found very average roleplayers can make races distinct enough that I don't forget what race they're playing - but very rarely make subraces that distinct.

I think it's implicitly left to settings to provide a distinction (like gold dwarves and shield dwarves in FR, which have quite different cultures), but a lot of them don't really do that.

And there is a sweet spot where a non-human race feels non-human in some important ways, but isn't incomprehensible. Tolkein managed it just fine.
 

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