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D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
There is nothing in the giff race as presented in the UA this thread is ostensibly about that represents them being tough. That's all I'm talking about. Certainly you can do stuff to make your giff tough, but under these rules the things you can do have nothing to do with it being a giff.
Hippo Build screams "tough", to me. Big guy that can shrug off most shove and grapple attacks, and is doubly better at them than most people. I don't like the mechanic, but I certainly don't get the "these UA Giff aren't tough!!!" complaint.
 

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
You are mistaken, what you are doing now is "pounding it into shape". And that you would never have thought about playing something not optimal means that the problem is you and not ASI.
LOL. I am not even the tiniest bit an optimizer. Not even a little. I'm a storyteller.

But I'm done with this tangent. I don't feel a need to talk to people who like to throw around "the problem is you" - type arguments. Have a nice day.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
You are mistaken, what you are doing now is "pounding it into shape". And that you would never have thought about playing something not optimal means that the problem is you and not ASI.
Mod Note:

Making things personal is a good way to stir up trouble. “The problem is you” is a good way to make it personal. Please rethink using phrases like that, as in don’t.
 

And what would have prevented you from doing exactly that with fixed ASI and your ability array? When you put your two highest abilities into int and wis you would still have a old wise guy. Who would also still be a Giff with his racial ASI and thus different from an old wise dwarf/elf/halfling.
In point buy or standard array, you both proved how meaningless ASI are.
It just does not matter at all. The best you get is a 5% higher chance to succeed for a few levels... I also do prefer advantage on dexterity or strength ability checks or +1 hp per level. Those things are significant bonuses and stay forever.

There is a reason 5e strictly discriminates between attacks, savings throws and ability checks. Having races lean more into the exploration or social pillar makes the game better.
A wood elf is still naturally stealthy and fast, no need for a dex bonus.
 

Ixal

Adventurer
In point buy or standard array, you both proved how meaningless ASI are.
It just does not matter at all. The best you get is a 5% higher chance to succeed for a few levels... I also do prefer advantage on dexterity or strength ability checks or +1 hp per level. Those things are significant bonuses and stay forever.

There is a reason 5e strictly discriminates between attacks, savings throws and ability checks. Having races lean more into the exploration or social pillar makes the game better.
A wood elf is still naturally stealthy and fast, no need for a dex bonus.
Wood Elves are also naturally dexterous. Or rather they used to be.
And an "old wise" wood elf with his highest abilities in int and wis would still be more dexterous than a "old wise" dwarf.
 





Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The ship on racial ASI has long sailed...

The funny bit being that folks griping about it can generally still have those ASIs in the way they are used to. The general population of the various races can be built assuming the ASIs of the past, and the old stereotypes they want can still broadly hold in their own worlds. Put the +2 and +1 in the traditional spots, and you are good to go.

It is just that now, individual PCs can choose to hold to those stereotypes, or can buck them without loss of effectiveness.

Because, heavens forefend we write the rules that are more flexible, and allow more people to play how they want...
 


This will be interesting since the Dwarf is mostly just ability score bonuses and bonus proficiencies. If Ability scores, languages, and bonus proficiencies will be "fully" controlled by the place and subraces become full entries, there is basically no difference between Mountain and Hill dwarves shrinks so considerably that it might be a waste of page space to print them as separate things.
To be fair, I've never seen anyone play them differently, either. The only dwarves that should get special rules are duergar (and maybe derro, but really we should forget derro entirely.)
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There is nothing in the giff race as presented in the UA this thread is ostensibly about that represents them being tough. That's all I'm talking about. Certainly you can do stuff to make your giff tough, but under these rules the things you can do have nothing to do with it being a giff.

Like I said, this seems like the tail wagging the dog. I wouldn't think that I need some justification for a 7 ft, 800 lbs soldier to be "tough". And being large and heavy is part of being a Giff.

I loved the giff as they were presented In previous editions, because i found their culture in contrast to their appearance interesting and funny. The Spelljammer novels included a giff character that represented this perfectly, and i remember it fondly. I lament the loss of cultural traits with mechanical weight in favor of telling everyone to make it up and just roleplay it.

Like I said, something about them having military discipline could be good... but then again, was the Giff race only soldiers? Thinking about it, what makes a Giff soldier different from a Dwarven Soldier different from a human soldier?

And the explosives could be interesting, but unfortunately, explosives are very very optional in Dnd, so I don't see them making them a core part of a race's mechanics.
 

I'm mostly okay with getting rid of subraces as presented - too often I think they were included because everyone else got them so why can't this race? Resulting in meaningless distinctions where it would be better to handle the diversity differently. Halflings and dwarves really don't need them, gnomes only need a chosable magical trait, and so on. Ideally, variations within a race should either look like dragonborn (like so, but pick your element), or like dwarves seem to be shaping up: he's the basic dwarf, but you can swap out proficiencies if you like. Tieflings would be able to swap Infernal Legacy spells, etc. For most races just having a default with a choice of features in logical places should work fine, and the ones that need more differentiation than that (genasi), it's usually going to be better to just make them separate race entries.

On the other hand, I think elves kinda need subraces, as they are in the core book - because having a few dozen different kinds of elves is a DnD trope, and the elf types are both established enough and distinct enough that the current method probably is the best way to handle it.

Drow are just high elves who pick an edgy cantrip? Not good enough. Drow as their own race (that we swear isn't all evil, they're just drawn that way)? That's a worse option.
 

+2 Dex does that just fine, the same as things like +5 movement speed.
No.
+2 dex is neglegible.
Actually I don't care either way if the elf gets +2 Dex. I still want other abilities.

As I said elsewhere, the Goliath is my favourite race. Tough and strong, no matter what you put into str and con abilities.

Edit: and to make it worse, since humans (the standard noone picks) get +1 to every stat. So for the elf actually it is just +1 dexterity and - 1 to 4 ability scores.
Mountain dwarves get +2 strength and con. How does the +2 strength from goliath compare to that? So the ability to carry more and natural athletics do more to emphasis the actual strngth due to size.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
To be fair, I've never seen anyone play them differently, either. The only dwarves that should get special rules are duergar (and maybe derro, but really we should forget derro entirely.)
Well it all comes down to setting. Most people run stereotypical settings with races hitting 75% of the tropes.

However if you dive deeper into original dwarf lore or into logical dwarf lore for a setting, some stuff culturally might change.

Why is an underground mining and nothing race using axes instead of war picks, shovel pole arms, and mauls. Ain't no trees down there.

Add in the tons of STR/CON races in fantasy and you will need to focus on non-ability score and non-cultural differences
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Wood Elves are also naturally dexterous. Or rather they used to be.
And an "old wise" wood elf with his highest abilities in int and wis would still be more dexterous than a "old wise" dwarf.

Unless that Wood Elf had a twisted leg and spine from a blight spell cast by a necromancer King ages ago during an epic war, and the dwarf is a famous circus performer whose spent the last hundred years performing in all the King's courts.

"Oh but then you didn't put your highest in those scores" Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. They are NPCs, they don't even get scores until midway through the scene. And for PCs... the moment you roll for ability scores it is a moot point.
 

Well it all comes down to setting. Most people run stereotypical settings with races hitting 75% of the tropes.

However if you dive deeper into original dwarf lore or into logical dwarf lore for a setting, some stuff culturally might change.

Why is an underground mining and nothing race using axes instead of war picks, shovel pole arms, and mauls. Ain't no trees down there.

Add in the tons of STR/CON races in fantasy and you will need to focus on non-ability score and non-cultural differences
I think I was unclear: I've never seen people play hill dwarves differently the mountain dwarves.
 

Ixal

Adventurer
Unless that Wood Elf had a twisted leg and spine from a blight spell cast by a necromancer King ages ago during an epic war, and the dwarf is a famous circus performer whose spent the last hundred years performing in all the King's courts.

"Oh but then you didn't put your highest in those scores" Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. They are NPCs, they don't even get scores until midway through the scene. And for PCs... the moment you roll for ability scores it is a moot point.
That is still faulty logic.
A wood elf with a twisted leg would still have more dexterous hands than a baseline human or be more dexterous than a human with a similar condition. And a dwarven circus performer would still be a dwarf and thus not as dexterous than a elven performer with similar background. But he would have better endurance.
Being a circus performer does not change your biology.
 


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