Wrong facts about D&D3 combat?

[Bullgrit]

Regarding the OP's experience, I believe him on most of it, but I do think that his "3 to 5 minutes per combat round" is anomalous. Really anomalous. Maybe if his group is made up of only low level characters... I've done a lot of timed public speaking. I don't think most people realize just how fast 3 to 5 minutes goes by. I wonder if this stat is actually based on measurements, or just a gut feel, because I have trouble believing that a 12th level ranger is firing 6 arrows in a round with varying attack modifiers while trying to remember which of the myriad buffs are present from the party's 12th level wizard and cleric, while trying to remember how the target's spells have modified things, all in an average of 36 to 60 seconds.

I guess you missed the part of my post where I stated, directly, that my statements are based on actual tracked measurements, and not gut feel.

I have timed with a digital watch how long our combats last. I check the time when everyone rolls initiative (e.g. 8:36) and then check the time when we drop out of initiative count (e.g. 8:52). I track each round with a hash mark, and I note the combatants on both sides of the engagement.

I would posit that if a Player can't roll 6 attacks in 60 seconds -- all the modifiers should be already written down, no? -- then that Player is really sloppy.

We have a druid in our current game, who often has 2-4 summoned creatures in a fight, and he can finish his rounds in around 60 seconds.

I play a war-cleric who is often buffed for fights, and has special abilities -- smite, strength -- that add modifiers to attack rolls, but I can still finish my rounds in less than 60 seconds.

In my experience, the things that take the longest in a D&D game (in combat or out, in all editions) is not the mechanics of the game, but is the decision making of the Players.

As for realizing 3-5 minutes, they go by fast when you are doing something, but they are very long when you are just sitting, waiting. And most people cannot accurately judge 5 minutes length without looking at a clock.

I invite everyone reading this thread, right now, to stop, look at your watch, and witness it counting off 60 seconds. See how long that feels. Think about how much rolling and calculating you can do in that amount of time.

Bullgrit

 

[Darrell]

Things that are regularly said about D&D3 combat that I just don’t see in my games:

Actually, from what you say below (at least on the first two points), I think you are seeing it; you're just not recognizing it.

Combats take a long time – we seem to naturally pace about 3-5 minutes per combat round.

Combats are short, 1-3 rounds – we regularly experience 4-8 rounds of combat, with some going up to 10+, only occasionally 3 or less.

Dude, that is the definition of 'combats take a long time' as far as I'm concerned.

3-5 minutes per round, 4-8 rounds of combat? That works out to 12-40 minutes each.

My group strives for 3-5 minutes (or less) per combat encounter.

Of course, that's why I only play 'B/X' D&D and Microlite20 now.

Regards,
Darrell

 

[Remathilis]

In my experience, there are a lot of factors playing into this.

* Level range: As PCs get more powers, their round-length grows longer. High level PCs have a huge amount of options which slows game down deciding on the best option.

* Buffs/De-buffs: magical short-term buffs or de-buffs (esp. ones that effect a variety of areas or ability scores) require large amounts of re-figuring time, esp str/dex/con ones.

* Party/Class composition: Casters typically take much longer to complete actions than non-casters due to spell adjudication. This is especially true of summoning spells, polymorph effects, metamagic effects, and quickened spells. Similarly, PCs focused on large amounts of attacks/round (like TWF rangers or FoB monks) or those with animals (like druids) who effectively had secondary PCs to run eat up a large amount of time. Woe to the DM who has a wild-shaping-natural-spell-summoner-druid-who-just-formed-into-a-dire-bear PC in his game. ;-)

* Rules Mastery: It goes without saying that experienced players are more adept at speeding up decision making, if only by the process of weeding out poor choices.

* Book Multiplication: The more books a player needs to cross-reverence, the longer the combat. While PCs typically get blamed for this (with their splat book PrCs and Spell Comp spells) many monsters require at least two or more books open to run (try running a large demon encounter with all their SLA's flying to see this in motion).

Typically, these are the elements I see slowing down 3e combat. The reason 4-10 work as a sweet spot is that monsters tend to be simpler (few SLA's/weird powers), PCs have mild-moderate options (1-2 attacks/round, only 5th level spells, few with long durations, and not many huge buffs). 11th level+, the game slowly descends into madness as PCs power accelerates and monsters join the arms race.

 

[kolikeos]

The combats I ran were against many opponents more often than not, but they did take a long time, longer then I'd like usually (both in rounds and in real time).
I did try to do the "baseline" combats against one strong monster, but this turned out unsatisfactory for both me and the players (although those were much shorter if the PCs won).

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

From my experience running mid level 3x games, my problem with the length of combat comes from external sources.

My group is usually larger, 6 to 8 PCs with companions, etc..
A few of my players are optimizers

This means that most encounters end in less than 4 rounds. Each player spends 1 to 2 minutes (gut feeling) per round...which is still just shy of 10 minutes per round for PC actions.
I use multiple NPCs except in very rare circumstances, so it takes me 3 to 5 minutes (gut feeling) to manage my portion of the round.
Which means about 1 hour for your normal combat in which the BBEG does 4 things........

This is the BBEG that generally takes me upwards of an hour to build.

Compound this with a once a month game that is limited to a 4 hour session. In 3x we would get in 2 combats, a couple cut scenes, some BS and pizza... and its over.

Now running the same group in 4e. Encounters tend upwards of 10 rounds or more. My BBEG, that took 10 minutes to stat out, gets to do quite a range of things. There is also much more non-combat time available in the session.

End result is that I think 4e is a much 'faster' combat game'.

 

[Cadfan]

*shrug*

I'll be honest- I'm very skeptical about your numbers, even though you say you recorded them. Something is fishy. Either your characters are very low level, or you play a heads-down GO GO GO DON'T TALK style of combat, or your numbers are flat out wrong, or all three.

A player at the gaming table isn't just rolling dice as fast as possible, he's engaged in conversation. This takes time. I, as DM, can roll attacks and damage very quickly. But I don't have to read my attack results off to someone else, wait for them to respond with which attacks hit and which attacks did not, and then follow up with damage numbers. And that's not counting time spent deciding what to do, momentary pauses recollecting information and adding numbers, pauses after listening and before responding to what has been said, delay while joking about what has happened, time spent narrating the battle, time spent looking up spell details that aren't usually needed ro combat subsystems that are unusual, time referencing charts and character sheets, and so on, on behalf of both the player and the dungeon master.

I'm skeptical that you accomplish this in an average of 36 to 60 seconds. I believe that you accomplish the occasional 36 to 60 second turn. I do not believe that it is the average, or even the norm if you are playing at mid to upper levels of the game. Your average should be demolished by the occasional four minute turn while something gets looked up, and the regular social rituals of human interaction and of combat narration should demolish your 36 to 60 second baseline.

Either your numbers are wrong, or you are playing the game in an atypical manner. Not atypical for 3e, but just plain atypical for any RPG. Do you perhaps not narrate combat?

 

[Bullgrit]

Either your characters are very low level, or you play a heads-down GO GO GO DON'T TALK style of combat, or your numbers are flat out wrong, or all three.

1. “characters are very low level “ -- The data I have collected on this are for parties ranging from 1st to 12th level. As I have said.

2. “you play a heads-down GO GO GO DON’T TALK style of combat” -- Not at all. There’s joking (a lot), high-fiving, looking up rules (not often) all the common stuff that I’ve seen in every game group in every game I’ve ever played.

3. “your numbers are flat out wrong” – I know how to count and tell time.

“or all three” – You see, this is all why I question “how does everyone else play” if everyone else (or most everyone else) is experiencing such drastic differences in their game results. No one in our group is trying to make combats go fast, they just do. (I wouldn’t even consider our combats as “fast” except that I read about how everyone else’s is so much slower. I mean, I wouldn’t have thought of 3-5 minutes per round as fast until I read how other people take hours to run a battle.)

None of us (as we are currently running a round-robin DMing campaign) are specifically trying to make combats last more rounds. None of us are specifically “breaking with the standard” by adding more monsters to the fights.

Imagine if you regularly cook dinner for your family, and you usually prepare 4 items in 20 minutes. You’re not a professional speed chef, and you don’t think you’re particularly fast or efficient. And then you start hearing many other people complain about how they hate that it takes them an hour to prepare 2 items. You start wondering, what in the world are they, or I, doing different? When you ask, you get told, “Oh well you must just use microwave TV dinners,” or “You must pick up take out on the way home from work,” or “You’re not actually preparing 4 items and it’s actually taking you much longer than 20 minutes.”

Bullgrit

 

[Dragon Snack]

My combats also tended to be against multiple opponents (even when I used published adventures, oddly enough) and last for longer than 3 rounds (often over 10 rounds, when spells would start to expire).

Combats did tend to take a long time. However, this was mostly due to inattentive players waiting until they were up before deciding what to do or the caster trying to get the AoE "just right". That's not a fault of the system...

 

[The Ghost]

Things that are regularly said about D&D3 combat that I just don’t see in my games:

Combats take a long time – we seem to naturally pace about 3-5 minutes per combat round.

We can generally do a round of combat in about 5-8 minutes. Most of us are quick with numbers and pay attention to the game-state. Plus, we use cheat sheets and often will roll dice ahead of time to keep the combat moving along. This is with 6-7 PCs and a DM running multiple monsters.

Combats are short, 1-3 rounds – we regularly experience 4-8 rounds of combat, with some going up to 10+, only occasionally 3 or less.

I think we average about 8 rounds per combat excluding the big end-of-campaign 6 hour knock-down drag-out fight with the Big Bad Evil Guy.

Combat is the PCs vs. one opponent – we regularly fight multiple enemies, usually 3-6, sometimes a dozen or more, only occasionally just 1.

Rarely do we fight just one opponent. Most of the time we are fighting against anywhere from 3-10 enemies. Again, excluding end-of-campaign fights.

As a group, we’ve never intentionally worked to make the above happen, it’s just the natural way our combats evolve. So every time I read someone state the apparently “accepted facts” that D&D3 combats take a long time to play out, last only a couple of rounds, and are always against just one opponent, it makes me wonder who’s doing what wrong/different.

Is my group, are my games the anomaly, or are the “accepted facts” of the edition wrong for you, too?

We evolved into our style pretty naturally. With rules mastery and some time saving cheat sheets have really sped up our combats and allow us to do interesting and surprising things in combat without it adding too much time to our game.

Either your numbers are wrong, or you are playing the game in an atypical manner. Not atypical for 3e, but just plain atypical for any RPG. Do you perhaps not narrate combat?

I am not sure how wrong his numbers actually are because they are fairly close to what I experience. And no, we do not narrate our combats. Combats generally go as follows:

Fighter: Does twenty hit?
DM: Yes.
Fighter: Twelve damage.
DM: The orc attacks you back. An eleven misses. One attacking the Cleric. Fifteen?
Cleric: Hits.
DM: For five.
DM: One attacking Paladin. Two. Misses. Paladin is up.
Paladin: I smite. Seventeen?
DM: Hits.
Paladin: Ok. Eleven damage.
DM: Orc goes down.

etc. etc. etc.

In this style of gaming combats can and will run rather quickly. I do not know how "atypical" this actually is because it is how I have played for fifteen years with five different gaming groups containing a total of about thirty-five different players. YMMV.

 

[Festivus]

Things that are regularly said about D&D3 combat that I just don’t see in my games:

Combats take a long time – we seem to naturally pace about 3-5 minutes per combat round.

Combats are short, 1-3 rounds – we regularly experience 4-8 rounds of combat, with some going up to 10+, only occasionally 3 or less.

Combat is the PCs vs. one opponent – we regularly fight multiple enemies, usually 3-6, sometimes a dozen or more, only occasionally just 1.

I regularly keep track of all the combat encounter stats when I DM, so my above numbers are based on actual facts, written down at the time, not based on estimation or feel. For instance, the past two game sessions from our current adventure (I’m the DM), the 4 PCs have fought opponents numbering: 10, 2, 9, 4, 6, 9, 1.

As a group, we’ve never intentionally worked to make the above happen, it’s just the natural way our combats evolve. So every time I read someone state the apparently “accepted facts” that D&D3 combats take a long time to play out, last only a couple of rounds, and are always against just one opponent, it makes me wonder who’s doing what wrong/different.

Is my group, are my games the anomaly, or are the “accepted facts” of the edition wrong for you, too?

Bullgrit
Total Bullgrit

Ok, after reading the first three replies I decided I would jump in with my experience (running a group of level 19 players). Here is the group:

The group:
Druid with a pile (4 I think) of multi-attack animals with her (one player manages)
Bard and a Psionic warrior (one player manages both, bard is a cohort)
Ranger with animal companion (wielding a double-headed orc axe, one player manages)
Persistent Cleric and Rogue/Arcane Archer type (managed by one player)

This does not account for summoned allies (a dragon, 2 treants, a earth elemental), nor that everyone is hasted (adding one more attack to most of these folks)

I cannot find any way to get through that many dice rolls in 3-4 minutes per round. This also does not account for the bad guys.

Our combats typically last 3-4 rounds unless something unexpected happens (I sometimes through in a new combatant that extends things for example).

I consider us to all be very familiar with our characters and the game at this level, there isn't much rulebook referencing, even with dispels we have that down pretty well at this point but it still takes a lot of time per round.

Frequently our combats involve 2-4 enemies.. I don't even bother with the minion type rubbish monsters as I find they don't have much to add and really just lengthen combats needlessly. I'll say they are there for flavor but that's about it.

I'd say you must be playing a low level game. Your facts were mine when I was running a level 1-10 game. Not so true at level 19-20.