Xanathar's Warlock Celestial

WotC's Mearls talks to D&D Beyond about the Warlock Celestial subclass in Xanathar's Guide to Everything. "What we've established in the cosmology of Dungeons & Dragons, is that clerics are tied to the divine beings, gods, or concepts and viewed with the divine, so it might be like the silver flame from Eberron. The celestial though is rather than being a divine being per se, it's a celestial being so it could be something like an angel, a ki-rin, a unicorn or anything else that's a powerful good aligned creature but it doesn't necessarily have to be a God."


[video=youtube;yfEWMNe2Q8M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEWMNe2Q8M[/video]


"And so that's the difference between for a warlock, warlock don't make pacts with specific individuals who are sharing power with the Warlock, rather than a cleric renting, gains power that's granted to them by the divine. And also with Celestials we still assume obviously it's a celestial, it's some sort of good aligned creature. So it's something the celestial warlock compared to other warlocks as a healer, they gain cure wounds as one of their sort of baked-in first level spells, and one of their first class class features allows them to heal. They also deal with radiant energy.

So I mean obviously you can play an evil celestial pact warlock if you wanted to, nothing stopping you from doing that, but the game kind of assumes that celestial means either good aligned or having to do with radiant energy and healing. And so compared to a cleric, where when you think of a divine spellcaster you think you think they're going to be tied to a domain like the cleric class does, where the god's portfolio influences the follower's magic, the celestial's more specific about being about radiant energy. It's almost like it's less refined compared to a cleric's ability to wield magic and cosmologically it's more of a brute force way to get magic with a pact, and that's kinda how we think of the Warlock in general that the Warlock pact is like the is almost like a a hack in the system of magic rather than the sort of accepted or intended ways in which people use spells. And in my head canon that's kind of why the warlock came into D&D later on it, sort of took the universe of D&D a while, people to figure out how to use magic this way as opposed to the sort of more traditional spell slot based ways of using magic.

And so yeah it's a celestial, you can imagine it might be something like especially, say, a coatl who might have agents in the world and so the coatl has these pacts with its agents for going out and working on its behalf, so they're they're good aligned celestial style creatures who aren't gods. And because of that one of the things I like about warlocks [in the city of pax?] is it can be more personal, a coatl might have a desire to protect a specific person, a specific family, or city where gods are more remote in Dungeons & Dragons, and I think that's something which in a DM can play up or a player could really bring into the game, this idea that the patron is more personal, might be someone you have more direct conversations with rather than speaking directly to God or Thor or something like that where they're much more remote, more abstract.

So I really kind of created it with this idea of someone wanting playing more the heroic warlock. Warlocks traditionally have a sinister bent to them in the game. If you look at the Players Handbook, the initial patrons are either things that are traditionally very evil like a fiend or the Great Old Ones or something that's kind of dangerous, maybe not evil but not necessarily friendly like a fey lord, so we wanted to kind of balance the scales a little bit and say being a warlock is does not inherently make you villainous or doesn't inherently make you dark and sinister. That celestial beings - obviously it's a celestial pact - they can also create pacts and so it's kind of balancing out the storytelling possibilities. And I also like that even introducing a new healer into the game essentially then you can run a warlock as your healer if you don't want to play a cleric, you can play a character in a very different casting tempo who can still bring a lot of healing to the table for the group."



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What is the purpose of needing it spelled out in the PHB?

1) You can houserule it in your home game, and
1) For Organized Play, nobody will care what you put on your character sheet under deity. It's not a rule that has any relevance for the Organized Play rules. In involves no more or less power for anyone, and is not a rule touched on by the specific Organized Play rules or called out in any other guidelines for Organized Play.

So I see no purpose in needing it in the PHB. Just do it. Nobody will care. It's OK to write it on your character sheet and play your PC as attached to a philosophy rather than a deity. If your DM won't allow it, it's because your DM wouldn't allow it with or without a mention in the PHB because it goes against their specific world. If they will allow it, they will allow it with or without mention in the PHB because it's acceptable in their specific world. There is no real need for any "official" mention on a topic like this. It doesn't help or hurt anything, but it also has no need. I don't see how this qualifies as "important". The game functions just fine with or without mentioning this issue in the rules, and doesn't work "better" with or without mention of it. It's purely a role playing issue - which you can role play without a rule about it.
 
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I'm not really sure what we can gain from rehashing this debate [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION], nothing has really changed since the thread that was dedicated to this discussion.
 

I'll point out that you can treat deities as symbolic of philophic ideas.

Like you worship Sune, but your cleric really just sees her as a symbol of a hedonistic philosophy, an ideal of a philosophy, instead of a manifest being. Or even a symbolic of a state of enlightment, like the Cleric really doesn't believe in Sune as a individual or am actual Goddess, but as a state of hedonistic enlightment that can achieved, Sunehood. Just a wyrd thought.

Even if taken literally, the Gods come with teachings and philosphies, they are more then celebrity fan clubs.
 

Celestials can be every bit as demanding and dangerous as the more evil pacts. On average, they are probably going to involve less damnation of the soul, but the trade off would include greater demands to behave yourself while you are alive (which is where most of your adventuring happens, anyway).

One player in my game is actually an evil Celestial Pact Warlock - He was contacted by a celestial entity moments before he was about to sign his soul over to a devil, and was offered a better deal. One that involves him travelling around and performing good deeds -- something he finds positively irritating. The character keeps a list of all his good deeds, and uses them as leverage to bargain for more power with his celestial.

It's quite hilarious.
That's brilliant. It reminds me of a player in my game who did something similar in a D&D 3.0 campaign; I used the variant "Learning New Spells" in the 3.0 DMG, which required sorcerers to strike a bargain with some entity. His patron was a Ki-Rin, and they didn't have the same alignment...with the results you can imagine :D
 

What is the purpose of needing it spelled out in the PHB?

1) You can houserule it in your home game, and
1) For Organized Play, nobody will care what you put on your character sheet under deity. It's not a rule that has any relevance for the Organized Play rules. In involves no more or less power for anyone, and is not a rule touched on by the specific Organized Play rules or called out in any other guidelines for Organized Play.

[...]The game functions just fine with or without mentioning this issue in the rules, and doesn't work "better" with or without mention of it. It's purely a role playing issue - which you can role play without a rule about it.
Indeed. Look at the BECMI Cleric, which gets spells simply by adhering to alignments/beliefs.

In fact, if I am going to run the Known World with 5e, I'll have clerics to just that.
 

I could see some very different characters being made depending upon patron.

A Celeslock making a deal with a unicorn might not be religious at all, making a deal to protect a forest or free the unicorn from a trap. Kind of like kissing cousins to the Feylocks.

A Kirin maybe makes a pact because some local law or tradition states it must.

A Aasimon like a Solar or Deva deal would depend greatly upon the God they serve.

But my Favourite would be the Empyrean Titan, because like the Aasimon it might be based upon God they serve, or it could be more personal, maybe they fell in love with the mortal, maybe they lost a bet with the mortal.

And unlike other Celestials the Empyreans have free will and do not become fiends when they choose evil, they stay Celestials.

My favourite is you could have a Cult of Celeslocks worshipping an evil Empyrean, trying to free it from Carceri, but acting like noble servants of the angels in public. This is my favourite.
 

Here is an idea for such a Patron.

In better days she was called Princess Brightstar and danced with the Gods of Light and Love and learned from the Gods of Knowledge and Magic.

But the Empyrean known as Princess Brightstar was too open minded and niave, and when a foolish mortal challenged to redeem Fierna and Beliel from evil, she accepted the challenge.

Instead of redeeming them, they seduced her into greater and greater acts of debauchery and perversion, and when Brightstar's Godly parents found out, they sent her to Carceri as punishment, till she learned restraint at which point she could rejoin them.

Now Princess Debauchery as she calls herself in the current times, sits on a throne of red ice, chained it by golden unbreakable chains, raging in frustrating at being denied all the pleasures she craves.

Princess Debauchery reaches out in the taboo dreams of mortals and offers power and pleasures beyond mortal keen if they worship and serve her, offering them Celestial Pacts.

Princess Debauchery is still a Celestial for all the evil she and her servants have done, so her evil is streaked with acts of occasional good, and she is known as a generous patron to have, and more forgiving them most evil patrons.

Still Princess Debauchery wishes to tear down the Gods of Good and take their place, rewarding her servants with the souls of the good people as slaves for all eternity.

Princess Debauchery's skin looks like polished black marbles, her hairs is dark purple with a metallic shimmer, her body is covered in purple glowing stars.

She never wears clothes, but her most intimate regions are covered by the golden chains that bind her.

Princess Debauchery's eyes are like two purple suns.

Ususual Princess Debauchery only makes pacts with her cultists.

But sometimes her ability to have her mood effect her local environment causes pacts to happen randomly in mortals whose dreams she has touched.
 

Celestials can be every bit as demanding and dangerous as the more evil pacts. On average, they are probably going to involve less damnation of the soul, but the trade off would include greater demands to behave yourself while you are alive (which is where most of your adventuring happens, anyway).

Good idea... for the Fiend patron I have usually told the players that in fact they don't necessarily end up having to obey performing some evil duties, because for example their part of the bargain might have been just to sell their soul. This is actually the standard narrative of the original Warlock inspiration (Goethe's Faust) i.e. a not necessarily evil person who strikes a deal with a devil for a not necessarily evil purpose, paying the price of going to hell when they die.

But this clearly wouldn't work with a Celestial. I mean, who wouldn't strike a deal with an angel when the price to pay is going to heaven when you die? :D
 

Good idea... for the Fiend patron I have usually told the players that in fact they don't necessarily end up having to obey performing some evil duties, because for example their part of the bargain might have been just to sell their soul. This is actually the standard narrative of the original Warlock inspiration (Goethe's Faust) i.e. a not necessarily evil person who strikes a deal with a devil for a not necessarily evil purpose, paying the price of going to hell when they die.

But this clearly wouldn't work with a Celestial. I mean, who wouldn't strike a deal with an angel when the price to pay is going to heaven when you die? :D


'm reading the webnovel Pact by Wildblow and there was a line that relates to this.

"Why would anyone ever make a deal with a Demon if you could make a deal with an Angel instead?"

"There's probably a really good answer to that question."


If something is too good to be true, you might be in deep deep trouble
 

I have a fantastic char in my group.. A yuan ti pure-blood celestial warlock who want to get away from the city state Hlondeth and the evil snake god they pray too. So who heard the call? The Couatls - servants of the unknown, or better forgotten (you can find it in 3rd Ed books) opposite deity to Set. Looking forward to play with this torn character :)
 

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