[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Zhure]

The following example, using 'ability' twice in the same sentence, once referencing the "metamorphic ability" and once the "supernatural ability" is further evidence, that those are the very same 'ability'.

Or that they are not indeed the same ability. Only "three uses per day of the metamorphic ability" means only three of the metamorphic transfer. It's crystal clear. The limitations on the dragon's supernatural ability is a further sub-limitation.

Greg

 

[James McMurray]

It doesn't say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ablity" it says "of the supernatural ability". I agree with Thanee that it is worded to mean that you get 3 uses per day of every ability. I also agree with you that it is too powerful. But then again, even at three uses of the feat itself per day I'd still say its too powerful.

A single feat should not shut down the DM's ability to use monsters with cool supernatural abilities just so he doesn't have to worry about letting his party have those abilities later.

 

[Thanee]

It's crystal clear.

Once you start adding stuff and 'read' your 'mentally altered' version... sure!

Bye
Thanee

 

[glass]

I agree with Thanee: three uses of one ability per form per day.

I had a theory all cooked up about American readers vs Europeans until James McMurray came along and scuppered it.


glass.

 

[Zhure]

Metamorphic transfer is a psionic feat which makes it a supernatural ability.

Greg

 

[Thanee]

Correct.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

It doesn't say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ablity" it says "of the supernatural ability".

Unless we have different editions of the Expanded Psionics Handbook I respectfully suggest you check again. According to my copy, it does indeed say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ability."

The trouble comes from the definition of 'metamorphic ability.'

Since 'metamorphic ability' is an undefined game term, I have interpreted it to mean 'the metamorphic transfer feat.'

Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability(1) per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability(2) only three times before losing access to the ability (3)for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.)

(I have added notations for ease of reference)
If we assume 'metamorphic ability'(1) means 'supernatural ability,' and 'ability' (2) refers to the specific example of the dragon's breath (which has unlimited uses) but you can only use any dragon's breath gained through the feat three times per day. In the case of 'ability' (3) it specifically refers directly back to the example of the dragon's breath gained through the metamorphic transfer feat. Thus 'ability' (3) is twice a supernatural ability (granted by a psionic feat, which makes it supernatural, and is replicating a supernatural ability).

I put forward that metamorphic ability (1) is supposed to be 'metamorphic transfer' and refer to the feat. It could be a writing error, or poor editing, or a change of the feat name during production of the book, or a simple oversight. Or perhaps the author thought his reference was so obvious he didn't need to be repetetive to be clear.

There is proof for neither assumption. Lambasting me for my position without offering refuting evidence is merely an ad hominem attach of which Eric's grandmother wouldn't approve.

If there's further proof what 'metamorphic ability' is supposed to mean, then by all means please provide it.


Greg

 

[Thanee]

Unless we have different editions of the Expanded Psionics Handbook I respectfully suggest you check again. According to my copy, it does indeed say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ability."

Yeah. I'm pretty sure he meant "metamorphic transfer" not "... ability" there.

Since 'metamorphic ability' is an undefined game term, I have interpreted it to mean 'the metamorphic transfer feat.'

Metamorphic ability is as a whole. Ability is not. There is only one kind of ability talked about in this feat, so ability can only mean that, really. Also reference are left out (the unlimited uses part), since - obviously - they all mean the very same ability, which is the supernatural ability of the creature you metamorph into, quite reasonably abbreviated to metamorphic ability.

If we assume 'metamorphic ability'(1) means 'supernatural ability,' and 'ability' (2) refers to the specific example of the dragon's breath (which has unlimited uses) but you can only use any dragon's breath gained through the feat three times per day. In the case of 'ability' (3) it specifically refers directly back to the example of the dragon's breath gained through the metamorphic transfer feat. Thus 'ability' (3) is twice a supernatural ability (granted by a psionic feat, which makes it supernatural, and is replicating a supernatural ability).

And again, you simply ignore half of what is written there, like the fourth (actually first) stating of 'ability', the part that talks about unlimited uses having no other reference, but 'metamorphic ability' in the very same sentence, etc.

It's completely irrelevant, that a psionic feat is a supernatural ability, the ability that is addressed there is supernatural anyways, but it's actually stated in the feat description, which supernatural ability is meant here, the one you gain when metamorphing, aka the metamorphic ability.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

Metamorphic ability is as a whole. Ability is not. There is only one kind of ability talked about in this feat, so ability can only mean that, really. Also reference are left out (the unlimited uses part), since - obviously - they all mean the very same ability, which is the supernatural ability of the creature you metamorph into, quite reasonably abbreviated to metamorphic ability.

There several abilities talked about in that paragraph. The supernatural ability of the creature and the ability to use the feat would be the two most obvious.

And again, you simply ignore half of what is written there, like the fourth (actually first) stating of 'ability', the part that talks about unlimited uses having no other reference, but 'metamorphic ability' in the very same sentence, etc.

I'm not ignoring the first appearance of ability in the summary line of the feat. It's a summary line and doesn't really mean much. It does not state the user gains unlimited usage. It merely states "You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form." It doesn't give any indication of unlimited, once, twice, a hundred. A parallel example would be the cleave feat which says, "you can follow through with powerful blows." Just based on that summary line (which is the same format as the metamorphic transfer line used to support the claim of unlimited uses) from cleave one might think there are infinite numbers of powerful follow throughs available. Reading the description reveals there are a limited number of uses.

 

[James McMurray]

Sorry, I was going on memory and didn't have the book in front of me.

Can I ask one question (after this one )?

Why does it matter?

Whether the feat allows only three uses of itself per day or three uses of every supernatural ability in the universe, its still too powerful. IIRC normal metamaorphosis doesn't even grant all of the new form's (Ex) abilities. One would assume that (Su) abilities are even harder to reproduce.

Given my experiences with 3.5's Shapechange I am convinced that anything that opens up the (SU) abilities of almost all creatures is too powerful, whether it costs a feat, a spell known, a power, or all of the above.