[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Zhure]

Of course, it would have been better to say, that the ability is useable three times during the duration of the metamorphosis. Or that abilities gained by the feat can be used only a total of three times per day, if you pick up Zhure's wishful thinking.

Of course, my wishful thinking also includes the wish that 'metamorphic ability' was a standard and defined game-term. Since it isn't, then it becomes interpretive, which is where the problem arises.

My interpretation is that as a pure editing oversight the phrase 'metamorphic ability' should've been metamorphic feat and thus eliminated this confusion. Why wouldn't it have said 'supernatural ability' if that was what was intended? Su is a defined game-term and easy to reference. The feat's lack of clarity is what's causing this confusion and I'm sure my interpretation will be very close to the errata that always accompanies new material.

Since Psionic feats, which are inherently supernatural abilities, as defined in the ExPHB are a new 'class' of feats there's sure to be modifications as the parlance expands to encompass the new ramifications. Much as we saw 'Divine' and 'Wild' feats become regularized.

Until then, I suppose an email to the sage is the only possible way to resolve the issue.
Greg

 

[Zhure]

New tact:

EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

The second sentence, in a new paragraph, talks about the exceptions further de-limiting the ability granted by the feat. No one argues about 'saving throws' are not spells and 'opposed rolls' are not spells, even though the first sentence only talks about spells.

Greg

 

[Thanee]

Inversely stated, this feat grants a minor advantage to the psion. That's what feats do.

Yeah, absolutely. Now if the feat would be like, if you change into a medusa, you can use the turn to stone ability 3/day. But that's not how the feat works. And adding together literally hundreds of "minor advantages" becomes a bit more than a minor advantage IMHO.

Once the general reasoning is put forth, it'd be nice to see specific examples illustrating the point. I've yet to see any.

If you say so...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The sentence should probably read:
"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic feat per day, even if the creature into which you can metamorph has a higher limit of uses of the supernatural ability."

Hey, I completely agree with you there... it SHOULD read something like that, but it DOES NOT!

Except they're not only in different sentences but different paragraphs.

And that is of what importance to the way these two sentences interact?

The headline (Metamorphic Transfer) is not even inside a paragraph...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

No, because you have two metamagic rods. Normally feats cannot be taken multiple times. Metamorphic ability (unclearly) explains what the effect of taking the feat additional times has as a result.

The comparison is between two rods and two uses of metamorphosis.

Both create a new ability, which can be used 3/day.

The limit doesn't carry over to the other use, just because it is a daily limit (which was, what Spatula implied up there).

And choosing the feat multiple times does not allow you to use any such abilities 6/day total, which it probably should, if it would work like you say, but instead it grants usage of two such abilities - each 3/day, each time you change form.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Of course, my wishful thinking also includes the wish that 'metamorphic ability' was a standard and defined game-term. Since it isn't, then it becomes interpretive, which is where the problem arises.

"Ability" is a standard term. Metamorphic - obviously - refers to the use of metamorphosis, which is the standard (altho, not the only) way to use the feat, which is incidentaly named by the same convention.

As a whole metamorphic ability is a supernatural ability gained by using the MT feat when metamorphing, a term used synonymously to changing form and derived from the standard method to do so for psionic characters, the power metamorphosis.

My interpretation is that as a pure editing oversight the phrase 'metamorphic ability' should've been metamorphic feat and thus eliminated this confusion.

Just that the sentence makes absolutely no sense then, as said above.

It should read something completely different, similar to what you said in the other post, but that would be a wee bit more than just an editing oversight, or not?

Why wouldn't it have said 'supernatural ability' if that was what was intended? Su is a defined game-term and easy to reference.

Because "ability" is enough, since it is already narrowed down to supernatural abilities in the first paragraph?

The feat's lack of clarity is what's causing this confusion and I'm sure my interpretation will be very close to the errata that always accompanies new material.

That might actually be the case (and an errata which completely changes how the feat works), altho I would almost bet on that they don't errata the feat at all. The 3.0 PsiHB errata has shown how "sensible" they are with that stuff.

It would be good, if they also explained how continuous supernatural abilities are meant to work.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

New tact:

the SRD 3/5[/b]]
EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

The second sentence, in a new paragraph, talks about the exceptions further de-limiting the ability granted by the feat. No one argues about 'saving throws' are not spells and 'opposed rolls' are not spells, even though the first sentence only talks about spells.

Yes, so?

That's a quite different structure, since these are actually independant sentences. In our example, this is not the case.

You still have not explained the complete sentence I have posted above, btw, instead you have posted a completely different sentence, which says what you think it should.

Why can't you explain the sentence as is in the way you see it?

Because your explanation doesn't work, since there is no other way to read the sentence. It's crystal clear!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

Yeah, absolutely. Now if the feat would be like, if you change into a medusa, you can use the turn to stone ability 3/day. But that's not how the feat works. And adding together literally hundreds of "minor advantages" becomes a bit more than a minor advantage IMHO.

If you say so.

 

[Zhure]

Yes, so?

That's a quite different structure, since these are actually independant sentences. In our example, this is not the case.

So it's an identical sentence structure.

You still have not explained the complete sentence I have posted above, btw, instead you have posted a completely different sentence, which says what you think it should.

Why can't you explain the sentence as is in the way you see it?

Ok, I already did by explaining the intent of the words via adding clarifying words, I shall do so again in simpler terms.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit of uses."

"...a higher limit of uses" of what? The feat?

"You..." (the manifester, possessor of the feat metamorphic transfer)
"gain only three uses..." (no more than three, only three, just three)
"of the metamorphic..." (the metamorphic transfer feat)
"ability..." (not an ability score, but a supernatural ability)
"per day,..." (typically 24 hours, see your GM for day duration)
"even if the creature into which you metamorph..." (see the power)
"has a higher limit..." (more than three)
"of uses." (of uses of it's supernatural ability)

 

[Thanee]

"You..." (the manifester, possessor of the feat metamorphic transfer)
"gain only three uses..." (no more than three, only three, just three)

You are watching way too much Monty Python!

"of the metamorphic..." (the metamorphic transfer feat)
"ability..." (not an ability score, but a supernatural ability)
"per day,..." (typically 24 hours, see your GM for day duration)
"even if the creature into which you metamorph..." (see the power)
"has a higher limit..." (more than three)
"of uses." (of uses of it's supernatural ability)

That's the same you have written above and still doesn't explain where that referencing point for "higher limit of uses" comes from.

So... Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of the Metamorphic Transfer feat.

That is what you think the sentence means?

Bye
Thanee