[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[James McMurray]

KM: Are you looking at the Expanded Psionics HAndbook? With only two powers a psion can deal damage equal to his level in d6 of any element he wants (if IIRC and dissolving touch grants acid).

They can't heal very well or buff others, but damage dealing is no problem. They even have a d6 per level no save no SR power at first level (range touch required).

 

[Spatula]

Re: Metamorphic Transfer
Think about it: three times per day for a power that lasts minutes (when it's used to take the form of a creature). That doesn't make any sense if the limit only applies to each manifestation of the power.

 

[reiella]

I think you need to look at the spells themselves.

Wizard/Sorcerer spells, in general, are more potent than comprable Psion powers. Ditto with Cleric spells. Psions can't deal a lot of damage, heal much at all, buff their friends, call down every element imaginable, etc. They sometimes have an edge on utility spells, but meh......

As James said, because of Elemental Damage bonus and variety, their damaging ability outperforms the Arcane spellcasters, except at oddities like Meteor Swarm.

And the Arcane get an advantage in summoning, but they're summoning stuff instead of creating an astral construct. I'm unsure as to how the construct competes against similiar level summons [Astral Construct Level 3 versus Summon Monster 3, I know both Overchannel and Wild Surge make that comparison not as 'optimal'].

 

[Thanee]

I think you need to look at the spells themselves.

Wizard/Sorcerer spells, in general, are more potent than comprable Psion powers. Ditto with Cleric spells. Psions can't deal a lot of damage, heal much at all, buff their friends, call down every element imaginable, etc. They sometimes have an edge on utility spells, but meh......

Well, I did that to a degree.

I found psionic powers to be more than a match compared to similar spells.

However, they surely lack the diversity of magic and the way magic can help out teammembers.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Re: Metamorphic Transfer
Think about it: three times per day for a power that lasts minutes (when it's used to take the form of a creature). That doesn't make any sense if the limit only applies to each manifestation of the power.

Why doesn't it make sense?

x/day is just a standard restriction, if you get limited charges.

And even if you say the limit carries over from metamorphing to metamorphing, you still would - definitely, since the limit is bound to a single ability - be able to gain multiple different powers 3/day. And in that light, it makes very little sense to do so (that is, having the limit carry over) IMHO.

Of course, it would have been better to say, that the ability is useable three times during the duration of the metamorphosis. Or that abilities gained by the feat can be used only a total of three times per day, if you pick up Zhure's wishful thinking.

It's just not thought through and surely not playtested at all, like so much in this superficially great looking but in the end pretty badly done (IMHO) book.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

A compareable example for x/day.

You have a metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.

Now you get another metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.

Is the total limit still 3/day?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

Nope, I don't ignore anything, I just state, that you are at a disadvantage then.

Inversely stated, this feat grants a minor advantage to the psion. That's what feats do.

As I said multiple times already, examples mean very little, except to illustrate a point, that's why I normally do not argue based on examples.

As an example, I state MT is broken, since you gain access to hundreds of powerful supernatural abilities this way (illustrated by three examples, greater invisibility, quickness and turn to stone, which are all very powerful abilities). Way too much for a single feat (plus one power).

And don't say that I have started this now...

You said a wizard could close his eyes and draw the conclusion, that MT is not broken, because one of my illustratory examples doesn't work in that case, altho it ignores the complete scenario (which you bemoan above).

Once the general reasoning is put forth, it'd be nice to see specific examples illustrating the point. I've yet to see any.

Detailing our example, the psion spends a standard action manifesting metamorphasis, then on a new round he spends another action to use the Su ability (in this case, the gaze effect). He can't manifest this round.

Meanwhile, our wizard sees what's going on and has two standard actions to react. It's possible he doesn't need to do anything special because he has a bat familiar, or he was planning on summoning a Xorn anyway.

Metamorphasis Transfer is a nice, flexible feat but I haven't seen any abusive or broken example of it so far that doesn't assume the opposition is witless and we're almost three hundred posts into this discussion.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

Now, let's assume you are right... then please explain the whole sentence to me under the assumption, that "metamorphic ability" refers to the Metamorphic Transfer feat and not to the supernatural ability gained through the use of Metamorphic Transfer, each time you change form:

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit of uses."

"...a higher limit of uses" of what? The feat?

The sentence should probably read:
"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic feat per day, even if the creature into which you can metamorph has a higher limit of uses of the supernatural ability."

The way you stated and explained both sentences above was:

1) says you gain one supernatural ability each time you change form.
2) says you gain a total of three uses per day of any and all abilities you gain through MT.

Correct.

That's independant, because one does not refer to the other this way.

I say, that 2) means the actual ability gained in 1) and therefore, by referring to 1), 2) obviously only works for the duration of a single metamorphosis, because you gain an ability, which you can use 3/day, each time you change form.

Except they're not only in different sentences but different paragraphs.

 

[Zhure]

A compareable example for x/day.

You have a metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.

Now you get another metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.

Is the total limit still 3/day?

Bye
Thanee

No, because you have two metamagic rods. Normally feats cannot be taken multiple times. Metamorphic ability (unclearly) explains what the effect of taking the feat additional times has as a result.

 

[Zhure]

KM: Are you looking at the Expanded Psionics HAndbook? With only two powers a psion can deal damage equal to his level in d6 of any element he wants (if IIRC and dissolving touch grants acid).

For completeness's sake, I should point out that a magic missile is a superior spell than crystal shard until around 10th level, where the damage becomes comparable factoring in missing the touch attack. After that, crystal shard begins to perform better but for a mage magic missile still only takes up a 1st level slot.

It's my experience that certain spells are signature spells for casters and are 'better' than the rest of the spells of that level. For arcanists, it's magic missile. For psions, it's crystal shard.

Greg