[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Zhure]

So, how can you say "ability" refers to the supernatural ability and to Metamorphic Transfer about half of the time each?

Noting that as a psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer is itself a supernatural ability would only further confuse the issue.

Yes, it's a poorly worded feat but the sentence structure is very clear when it says you gain only three uses per day.

 

[Thanee]

Thus our eyes-closed arcanist could use Melf's but not magic missile. Area spells would be easily used.

Ok.

So, once you have pinpointed the psion (which is not as easy as you said, because of the +20 modifier), you can use ray spells, which have a great chance to miss, or you could use area spells (without pinpointing probably, a rough estimate would be good enough here).

Now, don't you feel, that this is quite a bit of a disadvantage?

Yes, you won't be turned to stone, but with that disadvantage, you will surely lose the combat anyways, unless you have a number of area spells ready, which could save you then (of course, if the psion is close to you, you might hit yourself with them, too ).

Anyways, this is just one example, I was only going to point out, that your "closing eyes tactic" isn't really that great in the end. I'm pretty sure you see some problems there, too. It might work (not saying, that it never will), but it still leaves you in a very bad position.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Noting that as a psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer is itself a supernatural ability would only further confuse the issue.

That would actually change nothing, it's clear which SA is referenced there.

"The metamorphic ability" obviously means "The ability you gain by metamorphing (changing form)".

Yes, it's a poorly worded feat but the sentence structure is very clear when it says you gain only three uses per day.

Indeed.

Each and every time you change form you gain one SA, which you can use 3/day.

You only gain three uses of THE metamorphic ability per day.

This can only refer to the supernatural ability you gain through the (every!) use of that feat, which is talked about in the sentence before the quoted one. And since you gain one such ability each time you change form, you also gain three uses, each time you do so.

Yes, the sentence structure is indeed very clear.

Unless you read the sentence that talks about the limit out of context of the previous sentence, it can only be read this way. And even if you do, it has no meaning at all, since "the metamorphic ability" has no reference.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

So, once you have pinpointed the psion (which is not as easy as you said, because of the +20 modifier), you can use ray spells, which have a great chance to miss, or you could use area spells (without pinpointing probably, a rough estimate would be good enough here).

Now, don't you feel, that this is quite a bit of a disadvantage?

Yes, you won't be turned to stone, but with that disadvantage, you will surely lose the combat anyways, unless you have a number of area spells ready, which could save you then (of course, if the psion is close to you, you might hit yourself with them, too ).

Anyways, this is just one example, I was only going to point out, that your "closing eyes tactic" isn't really that great in the end. I'm pretty sure you see some problems there, too. It might work (not saying, that it never will), but it still leaves you in a very bad position.

Since you already know the psion's location when he metamorphasized, the first round of pinpointing isn't probably necessary. We ignore all the ways around gaze attacks (bat familiar? Reflective surfaces? Summoned Xorn attacking it for you) and we ignore all the spells that negate concealment or make it moot (true strike? area spells?) then sure it's a bad tactic to close one's eyes. I have seen closing eyes to avoid gaze attacks done in actual play with actual characters vs actual monsters and it works fine. It's no more difficult than dealing with an invisible foe; most of the same methods work for both cases.

This again emphasizes why analyzing an ability without building a character to exploit it misses out on so much. We don't know what the wizard is capable of in this case because it's all theoretical as to his gear, feats, spells, stats and so forth. It comes down to 'am-not, am-too' reasoning.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

Each and every time you change form you gain one SA, which you can use 3/day.

"Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any."

Thus, you can pick one supernatural ability per form that you might use. A medusa has only one supernatural ability, its gaze.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses."

Limited to three times per day. Sentence 1 says you gain them each time you change form; sentence 2 says only three per day. Two logical extrapolations exist:

1- you can change into a creature and gain a single supernatural ability, but can only use it 3 times, then you can metamorph again, and gain it three more times.

or
2- you can only use this feat for three uses per day.

I know which way makes far more sense from a balance perspective and as extrapolated from similar epic abilities (for the shifter) and the feat from Savage Species, which works an unlimited time per day but only with one form-specific Su ability. Clearly answer two makes more sense.

It could be argued that the first interpretation is not only far more liberal but far more powerful. Picking an interpretation that is the most abusive then declaring the feat abusive based on that interpretation is probably faulty logic.

Greg

 

[Thanee]

We ignore all the ways around gaze attacks.

Nope, I don't ignore anything, I just state, that you are at a disadvantage then.

This again emphasizes why analyzing an ability without building a character to exploit it misses out on so much. We don't know what the wizard is capable of in this case because it's all theoretical as to his gear, feats, spells, stats and so forth. It comes down to 'am-not, am-too' reasoning.

Yeah, that's why I try to state only very general stuff normally.

As I said multiple times already, examples mean very little, except to illustrate a point, that's why I normally do not argue based on examples.

As an example, I state MT is broken, since you gain access to hundreds of powerful supernatural abilities this way (illustrated by three examples, greater invisibility, quickness and turn to stone, which are all very powerful abilities). Way too much for a single feat (plus one power).

And don't say that I have started this now...

You said a wizard could close his eyes and draw the conclusion, that MT is not broken, because one of my illustratory examples doesn't work in that case, altho it ignores the complete scenario (which you bemoan above).

Probably works like that child-play (I don't see you - you don't see me ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Sentence 1 says you gain them each time you change form; sentence 2 says only three per day.

And this is wrong. Sentence 2 refers to sentence 1, because it says "the metamorphic ability", which refers to the "supernatural ability you gain by changing form", thus sentence 2 indirectly also refers to the "each time".

The sentences simply are not independant of each other, as you claim.

I know which way makes far more sense from a balance perspective and as extrapolated from similar epic abilities (for the shifter) and the feat from Savage Species, which works an unlimited time per day but only with one form-specific Su ability. Clearly answer two makes more sense.

Yeah, from a balance perspective, I absolutely agree, that it makes more sense.

From what is written there, it does not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

And this is wrong. Sentence 2 refers to sentence 1, because it says "the metamorphic ability", which refers to the "supernatural ability you gain by changing form", thus sentence 2 indirectly also refers to the "each time".

It more likely refers to the 'metamorphic ability' as the feat metamorphic transfer. Both include the word 'metamorphic.' I suspect this is wherein the confusion lies.

The sentences simply are not independant of each other, as you claim.

I never made that claim. They are independent sentences, the second adding detail to the first. The first says you gain a Su ability. The second, in a new paragraph adds the detail that the feat can only be used a limited number of times.

Greg

 

[Thanee]

It more likely refers to the 'metamorphic ability' as the feat metamorphic transfer. Both include the word 'metamorphic.' I suspect this is wherein the confusion lies.

Very much so.

Now, let's assume you are right... then please explain the whole sentence to me under the assumption, that "metamorphic ability" refers to the Metamorphic Transfer feat and not to the supernatural ability gained through the use of Metamorphic Transfer, each time you change form:

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit of uses."

"...a higher limit of uses" of what? The feat?

I never made that claim.

Ok, implied.

To explain, what I meant there...

The way you stated and explained both sentences above was:

1) says you gain one supernatural ability each time you change form.
2) says you gain a total of three uses per day of any and all abilities you gain through MT.

That's independant, because one does not refer to the other this way.

I say, that 2) means the actual ability gained in 1) and therefore, by referring to 1), 2) obviously only works for the duration of a single metamorphosis, because you gain an ability, which you can use 3/day, each time you change form.

Bye
Thanee

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think you need to look at the spells themselves.

Wizard/Sorcerer spells, in general, are more potent than comprable Psion powers. Ditto with Cleric spells. Psions can't deal a lot of damage, heal much at all, buff their friends, call down every element imaginable, etc. They sometimes have an edge on utility spells, but meh......