[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Thanee]

Yes, it's nice, but clearly not worth four feats as you've been saying.

Me !? You compared it with four feats (which I explained noone gets, so the comparison is pointless), not me.

I think Energy Missile is a strong 2nd level power, but not necessarily stronger than a lot of 2nd level arcane spells. Invisibility, for example, or Melf's is comparable in power if not more powerful.

Erm, you have noticed, that the power can affect five targets at once?

How about one? Just one? I mean the whole "medusa" thing doesn't fly with me. I've already shown how a low-level arcanist can defeat it.

By closing his eyes and becoming incapable to deal with the psion? Yeah, right!

As I said... sound tactic (that wasn't really meant seriously, yaknow ).

Keep in mind the DCs of the effect will be low, since a Psion tends to have CHA as a dump stat.

Only the ones that do not plan to pick up that feat...

And I'm quite certain, that Str is the number one dump stat for psions, as it is for arcane spellcasters.

This is what I've been talking about when I'm referring to an opportunity cost to get the feat. The Psion needs 1- a Wis 13+, 2- an Int 14+ (to be able to manifest metamorphasis), 3- a Cha 14+ (to make the save DC worthwhile), 4- a feat to know metamorphasis and 5- a feat to know metamorphasis transfer.

Yeah. But that seems reasonable enough to me, not really hard to achieve.

DC = 10+ Cha mod + 1/2 caster level. At best we're looking at around a DC 27 at 20th level. Assuming base CHA 18 and a cloak of charisma +6. Except the cloak won't work while metamorphed, so we're back to DC 24. Not many psions will have a CHA 18.

That seems like a pretty good DC to me, given the fact how low save DCs are in 3.5.

I'd be interested in seeing the spell to help determine why it would be so 'overpowering.' As I mentioned before, I suspect either the duration or the casting time wasn't the same as Summon Monster.

Well, it's just as polymorph but allows you to change into any evil outsider from the summon monster I - V (was VI) list (3.0) for 1min/lvl, and gain all abilities (extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural).

I was just pointing out, that obviously WotC saw the need to nerf this spell, since having the abilities yourself is just plain better than having something summoned, which does, since the spell does grant you the same abilities that summon monster VI would grant (indirectly) as well.

It was just an example to clarify my point, that is exactly that... having an ability is better than having someone have the ability.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The wizard has just as many points in Listen as the psion has in Move Silent so it's a 50-50 miss chance just like I said.

Maybe you would want to read those rules again?

And it's really hard to listen something, that does not make any sound, since there are no verbal or somatic components.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

How much benefit does the effect give? If it is just +1 DC, then it is the sme as the Red Wizard's Tattoo Focus in the DMG, and thus balanced with the other example of a highly specialized PrC.

It's much higher... up to +3 at 8th level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Three times per day at the cost of a feat?

Three times per day for EVERY 7 (or later 6) PP spent!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Charisma is immaterial, I believe you will find that there are few (if any) supernatural abilities with DCs anywhere near as powerful as what a psion can do when his level equals the creature's hit dice.

He's referring to my medusa example, which allows flesh to stone! You can do that at the minimum level required for MT + Metamorphosis.

Bye
Thanee

 

[kitoy]

Three times per day for EVERY 7 (or later 6) PP spent!

Bye
Thanee

XPH, pg. 48: "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day . . ."

This feat could use some clarification, I'll grant you that. But if I'm reading this correctly, you can only use the Metamorphic Transfer feat three times per day. If that isn't the case, I would probably try it out in play for a while, then house rule an appropriate limit.

 

[Thanee]

The limit is obviously placed on the form you have, not bound to the feat. So every time you assume a new (even if it is the same) form, you gain another three uses.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

Me !? You compared it with four feats (which I explained noone gets, so the comparison is pointless), not me.

Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!

Eschew Materials (ok, general )
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell
4x Energy Substitution (at least in the energy range of powers)

Erm, you have noticed, that the power can affect five targets at once?

Yes, it's a nice power.

By closing his eyes and becoming incapable to deal with the psion? Yeah, right!

Closing your eyes negates the gaze attack and the arcanist would act as if blind. Blind characters are treated as if everything is invisible. Invisibility grants full concealment. True Strike neutralizes any concealment. So does fireballing, and a host of other tactics.

Well, it's just as polymorph but allows you to change into any evil outsider from the summon monster I - V (was VI) list (3.0) for 1min/lvl, and gain all abilities (extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural).

I was just pointing out, that obviously WotC saw the need to nerf this spell, since having the abilities yourself is just plain better than having something summoned, which does, since the spell does grant you the same abilities that summon monster VI would grant (indirectly) as well.

Then it seems the duration was the real sticking point.

edit- format

 

[Zhure]

Maybe you would want to read those rules again?

And it's really hard to listen something, that does not make any sound, since there are no verbal or somatic components.

Regardless of the veiled ad hominem going on there, I'll point out that being blind and hitting a target that's not spellcasting is 50-50, assuming equal ranks in Listen (for the attacker) and Move Silent (for the defender).

Greg

 

[Zhure]

The limit is obviously placed on the form you have, not bound to the feat. So every time you assume a new (even if it is the same) form, you gain another three uses.

Bye
Thanee

Metamorphic Transfer, page 48.
"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."

and

"Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you gain one additional supernatural ability."

I suppose it could be interpreted to being three uses per manifestation of metamorphasis, and if that's the case then yes, it is terribly overpowering. As I interpret the feat the user gains three Su abilities per day, based on the limitations of metamorphasis. Three gaze attacks, three breath weapons, or any combination of the above not to exceed three. Additional purchases of the feat give one more Su usage per day.

Greg