[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

Additional purchses of the feat give you an additional supernatural ability of the form, not an additional use, otherwise the word "use" would probably appear in the special claus at some point.

While the feat would be more balanced if it were only 3 / day, that is not how it reads. The languages parses out very specifically. Whether it was intended to allow any number of (Su) abilities per day, but only 3 uses of each specific ability is unknown, but a it is written it works like this:

You metamorphosis into a creature, we'll say a beholder. You use his antmagic cone for three rounds, and then metamorphosis into another creature, perhaps a choker. You use his quickness for three rounds, and then turn into a beholder again. As you have already used the (Su) ability of anti-magic cone, you cannot us it again that day, but you can take the (Su) ability of eye rays and use them 3 times.

If you take the feat twice, then every creature you transform into grants you two (Su) abilities, each of which is usable 3 times per day.
 

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Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!

Eschew Materials (ok, general :))
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell
4x Energy Substitution (at least in the energy range of powers)

Ok, and now tell me where I said, that it's worth four feats?

Closing your eyes negates the gaze attack and the arcanist would act as if blind. Blind characters are treated as if everything is invisible. Invisibility grants full concealment. True Strike neutralizes any concealment.

Yeah, but it does not negate the need to target.

So does fireballing, and a host of other tactics.

Even fireballs need targets.

Blind magicians cannot target spells!
Because they cannot see where to target them.

And the listen check is a wee bit more difficult due to that small +20 modifier you get.

Then it seems the duration was the real sticking point.

*LOL*

Regardless of the veiled ad hominem going on there, I'll point out that being blind and hitting a target that's not spellcasting is 50-50, assuming equal ranks in Listen (for the attacker) and Move Silent (for the defender).

It's not.

"A listen check, which beats the DC by 20..."

That's what I meant you should read again... the roll is modified by 20, so not even close to being 50-50. More like 5-95.

Metamorphic Transfer, page 48.
"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."

How about the rest of the sentence? Or the stuff that is said before that?

Bye
Thanee
 

James McMurray said:
Additional purchses of the feat give you an additional supernatural ability of the form, not an additional use, otherwise the word "use" would probably appear in the special claus at some point.

While the feat would be more balanced if it were only 3 / day, that is not how it reads. The languages parses out very specifically. Whether it was intended to allow any number of (Su) abilities per day, but only 3 uses of each specific ability is unknown, but a it is written it works like this:

You metamorphosis into a creature, we'll say a beholder. You use his antmagic cone for three rounds, and then metamorphosis into another creature, perhaps a choker. You use his quickness for three rounds, and then turn into a beholder again. As you have already used the (Su) ability of anti-magic cone, you cannot us it again that day, but you can take the (Su) ability of eye rays and use them 3 times.

If you take the feat twice, then every creature you transform into grants you two (Su) abilities, each of which is usable 3 times per day.

The feat reads pretty clearly you get three uses per day.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."

The metamorphic ability is the metamorphic feat.

It's a poorly worded feat and I can see how one might reach the erroneus conclusion it's three per manifestation of a metamorphasis ability, but I'm sure that's not the designers' intent.

Greg
 

Thanee said:
Ok, and now tell me where I said, that it's worth four feats?

Page 9 is where that text is cropped from.

Yeah, but it does not negate the need to target.



Even fireballs need targets.

Blind magicians cannot target spells!
Because they cannot see where to target them.

And the listen check is a wee bit more difficult due to that small +20 modifier you get.

That's to pinpoint the target's exact square. The normal check to determine approximate location (which is usually sufficient for a fireball) is a DC 0. DMG page 295.

We're also assuming the wizard doesn't have blindfighting (which is rare), a familiar boosting his listen check (very common), or a mirror to avoid the gaze effect entirely (dirty cheap, but not as common as in earlier editions).


How about the rest of the sentence? Or the stuff that is said before that?

Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times before losing access to the ability for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.) The save DC to resist a supernatural ability gained through Metamorphic Transfer (if it is an attack) is 10+your Cha modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice.
Normal: You cannot use the supernatural abilities of creatures whose form you assume.
Special: You gain this feat multiple times. Each time you can gain one additional supernatural ability.[/QUOTE]

Three uses per day. Seems pretty clear to me.

Greg
 

Thanee said:
Energy Substitution in general only applies to "energy" type spells. Of course it's best for the kineticist, but even only one such power grants the complete flexibility (which is huge - it's roughly five powers in one this way - or one power + four feats)!

Found a clearer reference
 

Zhure said:
The feat reads pretty clearly you get three uses per day.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."

The metamorphic ability is the metamorphic feat.

If that would be the case, the feat would say (roughly), that you grant three uses per day of this feat, even if the creature you polymorph into has unlimited uses of that feat. ;)

No, sorry, but "metamorphic ability" can only mean the supernatural ability you gain during metamorphosis... referencing the one from the part before the one you quoted there.

Bye
Thanee
 

Zhure said:
That's to pinpoint the target's exact square. The normal check to determine approximate location (which is usually sufficient for a fireball) is a DC 0. DMG page 295.

What I am referring to is the targeting itself. Yes, you would know where to place an area spell, don't deny that, but you cannot do so, unless you open your eyes. You cannot target the spell unless you can see the target. With the fireball that would be the point, where you want it to explode.

Note, that I am not 100% sure, whether you actually need to target an area spell like that. It's clear for spells, where you have to decide on specific targets, but the area spell might work without seeing, tho I think you need to target it to the center of origin.

Bye
Thanee
 

Zhure said:
Found a clearer reference

That still doesn't say, that you gain 4 feats. It still says, that it's roughly equal to the effect of said feats (see your other quote above, which is clearer on that - that one refers to it), which is a huge difference.

Bye
Thanee
 

Let me highlight a few parts for you...

Zhure said:
Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times before losing access to the ability for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.) The save DC to resist a supernatural ability gained through Metamorphic Transfer (if it is an attack) is 10+your Cha modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice.
Normal: You cannot use the supernatural abilities of creatures whose form you assume.
Special: You gain this feat multiple times. Each time you can gain one additional supernatural ability.

Three uses per day. Seems pretty clear to me.

So, how can you say "ability" refers to the supernatural ability and to Metamorphic Transfer about half of the time each?

To recap:
The metamorphic ability is the metamorphic feat.

Also note, that the last part doesn't say you gain more uses per day, so even if you had the feat twice (in your interpretation) would only allow you to use any abilities a total of three times per day!

No, it's clearly meant to be the supernatural ability you gained, which is restricted to 3/day, and that (or any other) "3/day ability" is gained each and every time you transform ("Each time you change your form ...").

I admit, that the feat is poorly worded (and poorly designed as well), but that part is really pretty clear.

Bye
Thanee
 
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Thanee said:
What I am referring to is the targeting itself. Yes, you would know where to place an area spell, don't deny that, but you cannot do so, unless you open your eyes. You cannot target the spell unless you can see the target. With the fireball that would be the point, where you want it to explode.

Note, that I am not 100% sure, whether you actually need to target an area spell like that. It's clear for spells, where you have to decide on specific targets, but the area spell might work without seeing, tho I think you need to target it to the center of origin.

Bye
Thanee

PHB, page 176. You only need to be able to see the target of targeted spells. It lists Charm Person as an example. Rays are treated as missile attacks, and as such can be targeted while blind, with the appropriate miss chance.

Thus our eyes-closed arcanist could use Melf's but not magic missile. Area spells would be easily used.

Greg
 

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