[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Thanee]

He's probably thinking of the Channel Power feat at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20010928a. Very handy power if I do say so myself. Only 3.0 though, if that matters for your group..

That's the one (power, tho, no feat - wasn't sure myself).

Wonder, if they convert that stuff to 3.5 or not...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

What problems have you had with them?

The "problem" is only, that they have the Elemental Focus ability that add to DC, which all other classes that did so in 3.0 don't have anymore... so it's kinda obvious, that they should lose that ability and replace it with plus to caster level instead.

However, this would make their Elemental Penetration ability kinda "useless", as this is included in a plus to caster level and this should be replaced by something else.

I suppose Complete Arcane will show a highly altered revision of this PrC (along the lines of the Incantatrix, in terms of how much changed).

This class is currently not on one playing field with the other 3.5 arcane PrC.

As a sidenote, I don't really have a problem with that, personally, we even changed Spell Focus back to 3.0, since we think they have gone a bit too far with the changes (dropped Greater Spell Focus, tho - so you cannot get higher than +2, just only need one, not two feats to get there).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

Other advantages include being able to cast undetected by anyone around you, nd being agble to cast while grappled or held. Innate still and silent is definitely a big benfit in the psion's favor. Being able to completely hide a manifestation with a DC 15 check is also a huge plus. Its hard for an enemy to attack the guy that is energy balling them if they don't know who he is.

That's true to a point. Just because there's no manifestation doesn't mean it's a completely invisible attack source, either. It's still obvious a psion is manifesting (else he'd never provoke an AoO). So the still/silent aspects of psionics is nice but not overwhelmingly nice. Grappling and being held still requires a concentration check to manifest.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

Uhm... let's see... how about Grapple? Stealth?

Stealth is tough for a psion to achieve, since he doesn't get real invisibility and doesn't have the stealth skills to make it work. Even with Camouflage he's going to be pretty obvious on the field of combat.

Negating the display just makes him not stand out like a sore thumb. As I noted in a prior post, he's still obviously manifesting or there'd be no AoO.

Grappling it's a small advantage. Verbal-only spells can be cast in a grapple and there's quite a few of those, even without taking Still Spell. Manifesting, like casting, in a grapple requires a concentration check.

Just like I said before, it's mostly useful in a silence field. yay.

It's weaker than the hypothetical four feats, but much stronger than nothing!

Yes, it's nice, but clearly not worth four feats as you've been saying.

I'd still pick the Energy Missile and do lightning or sonic damage instead.

The sonic effect does 2.5 points per die. At 10th level it's 25 points.
Melf's at the same level does 15 with no save and no SR check, albeit spread over a number of rounds. Of course, spreading it out over rounds is useful as it forces concentration checks among casters/manifesters.

I think Energy Missile is a strong 2nd level power, but not necessarily stronger than a lot of 2nd level arcane spells. Invisibility, for example, or Melf's is comparable in power if not more powerful.

In fact, yes. DC is relevant on every single manifestation. Globe of Invulnerability maybe in 1% of those (if numbers are that high even).

Except on those powers/spells that don't have Power/Spell Resistance. Like Melf's. Globe of Invulnerability would stop darn near 100% of the effects we're talking about.

Nice list, now make the other? And no I won't do that, I'm not crazy enough to write down the hundreds of abilities you would get access to this way...

How about one? Just one? I mean the whole "medusa" thing doesn't fly with me. I've already shown how a low-level arcanist can defeat it. Keep in mind the DCs of the effect will be low, since a Psion tends to have CHA as a dump stat.

This is what I've been talking about when I'm referring to an opportunity cost to get the feat. The Psion needs 1- a Wis 13+, 2- an Int 14+ (to be able to manifest metamorphasis), 3- a Cha 14+ (to make the save DC worthwhile), 4- a feat to know metamorphasis and 5- a feat to know metamorphasis transfer.

This is why comparing the ability in a hypothetical vacuum doesn't give a complete picture. We ignore everything the character has to give up to gain this admittedly strong ability.

Uhm... what are we comparing again?

I just stated Astral Construct, because the psion could get that (instead of MT, which would be pretty dumb, really, as MT is like 10 times as powerful), if he wanted, but the comparison is not with AC.

We're comparing a psion with Metamorphic Transfer and Astral Construct vs a wizard with Summon Monster and Summon Monster. Both AC and SM take 1 round.

Just to remember, it grants access and extremely cheap usage of effects resembling spells (some of higher level). The DC of those even scales infinitely (without augmentation!). And that's just one of many options.

DC = 10+ Cha mod + 1/2 caster level. At best we're looking at around a DC 27 at 20th level. Assuming base CHA 18 and a cloak of charisma +6. Except the cloak won't work while metamorphed, so we're back to DC 24. Not many psions will have a CHA 18.

The reason why I stated this was, that WotC errataed this 6th level spell, but not the 6th level Summon Monster spell. For a reason.

I'd be interested in seeing the spell to help determine why it would be so 'overpowering.' As I mentioned before, I suspect either the duration or the casting time wasn't the same as Summon Monster.

 

[Zhure]

Facing a psion with closed eyes isn't going to be fun. You cannot even listen where he is!

I'm not following as to why. Is the Psion expending more power points to control sound? Has he shelled out a lot of cross-class skills for Move Silently? He might be manifesting without an audible display but he's still a valid target for a listen check.

The wizard has just as many points in Listen as the psion has in Move Silent so it's a 50-50 miss chance just like I said.

 

[James McMurray]

The "problem" is only, that they have the Elemental Focus ability that add to DC, which all other classes that did so in 3.0 don't have anymore... so it's kinda obvious, that they should lose that ability and replace it with plus to caster level instead.

However, this would make their Elemental Penetration ability kinda "useless", as this is included in a plus to caster level and this should be replaced by something else.

I suppose Complete Arcane will show a highly altered revision of this PrC (along the lines of the Incantatrix, in terms of how much changed).

This class is currently not on one playing field with the other 3.5 arcane PrC.

How much benefit does the effect give? If it is just +1 DC, then it is the sme as the Red Wizard's Tattoo Focus in the DMG, and thus balanced with the other example of a highly specialized PrC.

 

[James McMurray]

That's true to a point. Just because there's no manifestation doesn't mean it's a completely invisible attack source, either. It's still obvious a psion is manifesting (else he'd never provoke an AoO). So the still/silent aspects of psionics is nice but not overwhelmingly nice. Grappling and being held still requires a concentration check to manifest.

AoOs are not caused because you see someone do something. They are caused by a lapse in concentration. Undetectable manifestations cause AoOs, but it is not because the guy says "wow, he just energy cone'd me" its because your concentration slips and allows one of the many thrusts and slashes past your gaurd.

Grapplng and held doe still require concentration, but the psion can manifest any power in that situation The other spellcasters must use verbal only spells, and must use silent spells once they are pined. This is indeed a huge benefit to a psion. Of course you still won't want to be grappled, but if you are you've got a lot ore options available to you.

How about one? Just one? I mean the whole "medusa" thing doesn't fly with me. I've already shown how a low-level arcanist can defeat it.

A Choker's quicknes ability allow the psion something a wizard annot get without shapechange: 3.0 haste. A beholder's antimagic ray will turn the party fighters into gods when facing sdown spellcasters.

1- a Wis 13+, 2- an Int 14+ (to be able to manifest metamorphasis), 3- a Cha 14+ (to make the save DC worthwhile), 4- a feat to know metamorphasis and 5- a feat to know metamorphasis transfer.

1- A character wanting Psionic Meditation will already have Wis 13.
2- All psions will have high int, thus it is a non-factor.
3- DC is not a factor in the abilities I cited above, nor in many other abilities. This is a non-factor.
4- Egoists get Metamosphosis without a feat, nd metamorphosis aloneis worthy of a feat. This is a non-factor.
5- You mean I have to spend a feat to create an antimagic cone? Or get 3.0 haste? Sounds like a great trade to me.

DC = 10+ Cha mod + 1/2 caster level. At best we're looking at around a DC 27 at 20th level. Assuming base CHA 18 and a cloak of charisma +6. Except the cloak won't work while metamorphed, so we're back to DC 24. Not many psions will have a CHA 18.

The most powerful effects to gain from this are not offensive in nature. A Psion will already have plenty of offense without spending a feat on getting more.

I'd be interested in seeing the spell to help determine why it would be so 'overpowering.' As I mentioned before, I suspect either the duration or the casting time wasn't the same as Summon Monster.

The spell gave access to all of the creature's spell-like abilities, including teleport without error at will.

 

[Zhure]

AoOs are not caused because you see someone do something. They are caused by a lapse in concentration. Undetectable manifestations cause AoOs, but it is not because the guy says "wow, he just energy cone'd me" its because your concentration slips and allows one of the many thrusts and slashes past your gaurd.

Yes, but the power itself isn't invisible. A crystal shard still travels from the psion to the target, the energy missile still comes from the psion. There are a few powers whose manifestation is directly tied to the power itself, and those would be masked by making the concentration check, like leechfield, for example.

A Choker's quicknes ability allow the psion something a wizard annot get without shapechange: 3.0 haste. A beholder's antimagic ray will turn the party fighters into gods when facing sdown spellcasters.

Three times per day at the cost of a feat? Ok, doesn't seem terribly overpowerful even at the earliest available at ninth level. It's not weak by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't find it overpowering.

1- A character wanting Psionic Meditation will already have Wis 13.
2- All psions will have high int, thus it is a non-factor.
3- DC is not a factor in the abilities I cited above, nor in many other abilities. This is a non-factor.
4- Egoists get Metamosphosis without a feat, nd metamorphosis aloneis worthy of a feat. This is a non-factor.
5- You mean I have to spend a feat to create an antimagic cone? Or get 3.0 haste? Sounds like a great trade to me.

1- But a high stat here, means a weaker stat somewhere else, like Con, Dex or Cha.
2- See #1.
3- The DC is important for a lot of abilities. If the psion wants an 'offensive' usage he once again has to bump another stat. See #1.
4- As a result the Egoist gives up access to a lot of good powers, some of which will require a feat to learn. Vice-versa for Shapers who want metamorphasis transfer.
5- Yes, as part of a sort of 'feat chain.' It takes a stack of abilities to get there. One or more feats, a relatively high Wis, probably a relatively high Cha.

Unlike a wizard, being an invisible, flying, death-from-above machine requires a lot more expenditure of character resources. That's why I say that building a character to exploit Metamorphasis Transfer highlights some of the downside of this tactic.

The spell gave access to all of the creature's spell-like abilities, including teleport without error at will.

That alone might've been enough to nerf it since summoned monsters in 3.5 can't use teleportational abilities.

Greg

 

[James McMurray]

The Egoist gives up no mre than any other race.

You may think that having an antimagic cone 3/day at 10th level is not nbalanced, but try allowing it into a campaign and then having a BBEG be a cleric, a psion, or a wizard. Three rounds without magic will kill any spellcaster, esecially when an entire party is laying into him

1- But a high stat here, means a weaker stat somewhere else, like Con, Dex or Cha.
2- See #1.
3- The DC is important for a lot of abilities. If the psion wants an 'offensive' usage he once again has to bump another stat. See #1.
4- As a result the Egoist gives up access to a lot of good powers, some of which will require a feat to learn. Vice-versa for Shapers who want metamorphasis transfer.
5- Yes, as part of a sort of 'feat chain.' It takes a stack of abilities to get there. One or more feats, a relatively high Wis, probably a relatively high Cha.

1- Yep. But the psion is likely to already want that stat, meaning it is a nonissue. If the character in question is a Psychic Warrior, he wil already have #1, and be able to disregard #2.
2- Please. All psions will have an int of at least 15 by the time they can manifest 10th level powers. If you are a Psychic Warrior instead, you get to use wisdom.
3- As I said, DC is immaterial. Psions have enough offense without metmaorphic transfer. This feat is not an offensive feat (except in the way that antimagic cones and quickness are offensive). DCs are completely irelevant when discussing the balance of this feat.
4- Every single psion subclass gies up access to specific powers, and regains access to them via Expanded Knowldge (takable with class bonus feats).
5- What feat chain? What "high abilities"? You need a wisdom of 13+, that you probably would have had anyway. You need an intelligence of 15+, which you are gauranteed to have had anyway. Charisma is immaterial, I believe you will find that there are few (if any) supernatural abilities with DCs anywhere near as powerful as what a psion can do when his level equals the creature's hit dice.

If you want to use the feat for offense, just be a wilder. You'll even get to wild surge to take the form of higher hit dice creatures, gaining access to better and more diversified abilities.

 

[Thanee]

It's still obvious a psion is manifesting (else he'd never provoke an AoO).

Erm, that's not really how AoO are supposed to work.

The reason why you provoke an AoO is not, that you do something obvious, like manifesting/spellcasting, it's completely irrelevant, if that can be detected or not.

The reason for an AoO is, that you stop defending yourself (since you have to concentrate), something which is generally assumed to happen automatically, and once you let your guard down, your opponent can get more attacks in... hence the AoO.

That's really just a sidenote, tho.

...overwhelmingly nice...

Nice term.

Grappling and being held still requires a concentration check to manifest.

Same for spellcasting... just that they are limited to spells with no somatics and they need to go fishing for material components, which wastes valuable actions. With pinning, even verbal components can be prevented.

Bye
Thanee