[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Zhure]

The comparison is between two rods and two uses of metamorphosis.

Both create a new ability, which can be used 3/day.

Neither metamagic nor rods nor metamagic rods are new in 3.5. The special rules for taking a feat multiple times isn't new in 3.5 either. Normally have multiple iterations of an ability grants extra uses (so two metamagic rods means six uses) but feats cannot normally be taken multiple times. When they can their effects are specifically delineated in every single case. Taking weapon focus multiple times doesn't give an additional +1 to hit with the same weapon. Taking weapon specialization multiple times doesn't give +2 to damage to the same weapon. Examples abound.

 

[Thanee]

Since you havn't noticed... the main point of the comparison is the "3/day", and how stating something is "3/day" doesn't automatically mean, that it's impossible to get around that limitation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

That's the same you have written above and still doesn't explain where that referencing point for "higher limit of uses" comes from.

So... Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of the Metamorphic Transfer feat.

One supposes you're being intentionally obdurate.

No, the higher limit of uses refers to the Su of the creature. The example talks about a dragon being able to breathe more than three times per day, obviously since you can only use the Su ability gained from metamorphic transfer three times per day you cannot assume the form of a red dragon and rain breathy fire down upon your enemies as an action once every 1d4 rounds. Since you may only use metamorphic transfer three times per day, you get three breath weapons, or one breath weapon and two other Su's per day.

 

[Zhure]

Since you havn't noticed... the main point of the comparison is the "3/day", and how stating something is "3/day" doesn't automatically mean, that it's impossible to get around that limitation.

It's not impossible to get around the limitation, but acquiring an additonal feat of metamorphic transfer clearly won't give that* ability.

edit
*that ability meaning 'doubling to six from three' the number of uses of metamorphic transfer per day.

 

[Thanee]

One supposes you're being intentionally obdurate.

Huh? I just spelled out what you have written above. Of course, it sounds rather weird in one sentence... which is the point I'm making, because it MAKES NO SENSE that way!



Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

It's not impossible to get around the limitation, but acquiring an additonal feat of metamorphic transfer clearly won't give that* ability.

That's still not what the comparison is about.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

Huh? I just spelled out what you have written above. Of course, it sounds rather weird in one sentence... which is the point I'm making, because it MAKES NO SENSE that way!

Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of the Metamorphic Transfer feat.

You're so tantalizingly close.

It should be...

Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of any Supernatural ability gained from the Metamorphic Transfer feat.

As I've said before you're taking the most liberal and powerful interpretation of the feat then claiming the feat is overly powerful. Making a more reasonable interpretation of the intent of the feat brings it right back into line with most other feats.

It's akin to using the 'bucket of snails' interpretation of Whirlwind Attack as evidence that Whirlwind Attack is broken.

Greg

 

[Thanee]

Hey, I already said, that it would work better that way...

But you cannot make the jump from the written text to the stuff you now wrote without altering the sentences significantly and adding meaningful content, since if you don't, then the whole interpretation of yours is completely pointless.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zhure]

I don't believe the implied object of 'it's supernatural ability' is 'adding meaningful content.' It's taking a one word implied meaning and adding it's full meaning. The sentence actually sounds clunkier in English by adding the three additional words, which is why it* might've been left out.

Greg
*this being a perfect example. What does 'it' mean? In this case, 'it,' while singular refers a complex idea.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, it's really not very meaningful, if you add something, that changes the reference (from "unlimited uses of the metamorphic ability" to "unlimited uses of it's supernatural ability").

You can deny that reference, if you want to, but it doesn't make it go away.
If you run towards a rock and close your eyes, you'll still bump into it.

Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses.

If you look up the references from back to front... the higher limit of uses refers to the uses of the metamorphic ability, which can only mean, that the metamorphic ability is the supernatural ability of the creature you metamorphed into. Now, this metamorphic ability can only be the new form's supernatural ability you gained from the first paragraph. This ability has a 3/day limit, as the second paragraph tells us. You gain one such ability each time you change form, as the first paragraph tells us, limit included, since the second paragraph refers to the first and the limit only applies to the supernatural ability you gained when metamorphing.

The following example, using 'ability' twice in the same sentence, once referencing the "metamorphic ability" and once the "supernatural ability" is further evidence, that those are the very same 'ability'.

For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times before losing access to the ability for the day.

By the way...

What does 'it' mean?

What 'it'? There is no 'it' in the sentence... 'it' is left out, because 'it' is unnecessary, since the first part of the sentence already states 'it' ("metamorphic ability").

And again, your version of 'reading' it, is much more balanced (I probably still wouldn't allow it, even with that restriction applied, but it's a lot closer), but it's simply not supported by the text, unless you completely deny what is written there and replace it or add stuff that's simply not there (which in turn leads to the restriction you are talking about).

Bye
Thanee