[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

Zhure said:
I'm not ignoring the first appearance of ability in the summary line of the feat. It's a summary line and doesn't really mean much.

Hey, no problem, we could just drop that part. What was it again, the feat does?

It does not state the user gains unlimited usage. It merely states "You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form." It doesn't give any indication of unlimited, once, twice, a hundred.

Correct. It just states, that you gain an ability each time you change form.

A parallel example would be the cleave feat which says, "you can follow through with powerful blows." Just based on that summary line (which is the same format as the metamorphic transfer line used to support the claim of unlimited uses)

Where did you get those unlimited uses from? They are, of course, limited.

from cleave one might think there are infinite numbers of powerful follow throughs available.

Yeah, the limit is included in the part below. It says there, that you can use the ability (the one you gain each time you change form) 3/day.

Reading the description reveals there are a limited number of uses.

Right. 3/day. Each time you change form.

Bye
Thanee
 

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James McMurray said:
Whether the feat allows only three uses of itself per day or three uses of every supernatural ability in the universe, its still too powerful.

Yeah, that's one of those parts Zhure doesn't really understand (IMHO, of course :)).

Opening the option to gain literally hundreds of supernatural abilities is broken!

Even if it would (which it does not) only work 3/day total.

Bye
Thanee
 

I would definitely rule that Metamorphic Transfer only allows three supernatural abilities per day based upon the dragon breath weapon example. However, I do think that even at 3t per day the feat is too powerful. I would want to limit the feat for any character under 12th level. I would add a BAB +7 prerequisite.

-Psiblade
 

I understand your reasoning Thanee, it's just flawed. :)

See, I can make rude jabs ending with a smiley too. It doesn't further the discussion and I frankly tire of it.

Since you're incapable of discussing things with civility, without resorting to personal attacks, I'll just end it here.
 

I actually find neither the line you posted nor what I have written above to be offensive (and for the record, that line has not much to do with the discussion of the last hundred or so ;) posts).

If you do, I apologize, since that is not my intent.

Bye
Thanee
 

Zhure said:
Since you're incapable of discussing things with civility, without resorting to personal attacks, ...

Now that part is just wrong... and I'm pretty sure you know that very well!

Bye
Thanee
 

Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability(1) per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability(2) only three times before losing access to the ability (3)for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.)

How I would read it:

"Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any."
-- Each and everytime you change form, you gain acess to one of that forms supernatural powers, assuming it has at least one. You do not gain any if it has no super natural abilities.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. "
(This sentance is actually gibberish and utterly unmeaningful, but my best efforts)
-- You gain three uses of the "metamorphc ability"
*The word "the" indicates reference to a preiously introduced concept, well the only such idea introduced so far as an ability would be the ability gained by changing form, therefore it must relate to that. Hense for metamorphic ability read "ability gained via use of the the metamorphic transfer feat"

- You only gain three uses of the "ability gained via the metamorphic feat" per day, even if th creature would normally be able to use the ability more often than this.

"For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times before losing access to the ability for they day."
*note it says "acess to the ability", here the word "the" again refers to a preceeding object, in this case the breath weapon.
ie.
-For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use the super natural ability of a dragons breath weapon only three times before losing access to the ability for the day.

"(You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.) "
- This limit of uses per day does not supercede any other limits upon the supernatural ability's useage.For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds, and a maximum of three times per day

That is the "literal" interpretation
Majere
 

So, if I got this right, you are saying, that you gain a supernatural ability each time you change form, you can use that 3/day. You can change form again after that and, even if you used the SA 3 times before, gain another ability, which you can then use 3/day, just not the same, because the 3/day limit "carries over". Right?

That's a viable interpretation (just depends how you read the 3/day limitation), I think, which I have stated (somewhere) above as well. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

For me the sentence "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day," limits you to exactly to 3 uses of the ability (feat) per day. The dragon example further limits the ability to no more often than the creature itself can perform the action. Breaking down the sentence into components seems to make the meaning clearer. The function of the sentence is to express limitations on the power. This limitation of using the feat 3 times per day follows and modifies the previous sentence. I do agree the sentence should be clearer, but this is the only reading that can fit game balance and sentence structure.

-Psiblade
 

@Psiblade: If you are really bored, read what I have written above most of the time. It should make clear why "metamorphic ability" can only mean the supernatural ability gained by changing form.

Here are some posts to check: #279 (pg. 14), #283 (pg. 15), #289, #306 (pg. 16), #320.

Bye
Thanee
 

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