Yet another Monkey Grip thread.

[CuRoi]

Cool - I finally see a physical display of the use of the Gae Bulga at about 1:35. (Yeah, I'm probably the only one that sees a weapon feat from Irish mythology in a Chinese martial arts flick...)

I'd agree though, not much monkey grip action there though.

 

[Greenfield]

15' spears historically have often been used one handed with a shield, dnd's rules prohibiting it are unrealistic. I simply used dm's fiat to allow spears and longspears to be used as one-handed martial weapons. The lower damage balances with reach/thrown.

You've touched on a truth there.

The long spear you're mentioning wasn't thrown, but usually used to form a pike line. That is, not used so much for attack as grounded and braced for defense, often rested on the shield for extra support.

So I'd allow that sort of use without a special feat. Best used in formation though. In single combat the first thing I'd do is push your spear point aside. You have no leverage against the lateral force, and before you can really do much I'm inside your weapon range.

 

[Sekhmet]

Setting a longspear against a charge, using your shield as a fulcrum, kept the horse from continuing to charge into you (the spear would immediately force it onto it's hind legs and fall backward or to the side).
It isn't exactly wielding it in one hand.

As for Greenfield's post, the pikeline was usually several lines thick, with no one wielding shields at all, just 15'-25' two or three men deep. And you're right, in single combat, he has no ability to combat you pushing it to the side, even if you are of average strength.

 

[TanisFrey]

15' spears historically have often been used one handed with a shield, dnd's rules prohibiting it are unrealistic. I simply used dm's fiat to allow spears and longspears to be used as one-handed martial weapons. The lower damage balances with reach/thrown.

Greek Phalanx formations were used spears this long and longer. The first ranks used shields and short spear or short swords. The second rank used ~10 ft spears and sometimes shields. The third rank used the long 12-15 ft spears and the fourth rank used the very long pikes that were 15~18 ft long. The third and fourth ranks used special slings to help control the spears. Then someone approached these formations they would face 12 spears able to poke them at once. They tended to push each other all over the place until one of the opposing Phalanx broke down its formation.

These special slings are still used sometimes today. Ever seen a troop formation that is carrying a flag?

The flag carries are using a flag holder. This device is a cup on a long strap. You place the strap over the shoulder on the opposite side of the side you are carrying the flag. The cup is on your hip and you place the end of the flag into it. This allows you transfer the weight of the flag to your shoulder instead of you arms. You can march longer this way and not tire you arms out. You also have greater control over the flag and can dip it when protocol or overhead wires calls for it.

The Greeks invented this item for the long pikes that they used in ancient times to carry and control the pikes that were greater than 10 ft long. I can see someone using this holster with a longspear to free up a hand for a shield.

 

[PixelKnight]

I tend to DM from a more realistic perspective. That is, in a world where extraordinary feats are possible, and despite the existence of magic, the world is still affected by at least some concepts of physics. As a DM, I occasionally have had to make some unpopular rulings just to preserve some sanity to my games. Luckily, I never have too much issue with players.

If you as a DM think that a rogue wearing shiny black leather couldn't possibly hide in the middle of a flat, barren, snow covered plain on a bright, sunny day without going prone, no matter what his skill bonus is, no matter what feats he has, then that is your perogative. I would never allow it, no matter what the rules may say. Rules can't overrule intelligence and just basic common sense. That's why there's a DM at all, so that insane rulings like that aren't allowed.

So in that case, if you really don't feel like a character could effectively wield a 25 foot spear, even with the monkey grip feat, I say that sounds pretty sensible, and go for it. Usually in circumstances like that, I at least try to offer some sort of alternative to the player, though. The alternative may not be very close to what they were wanting, but I think it is good for players to realize that they can't always be allowed to have whatever they want.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

I tend to DM from a more realistic perspective. That is, in a world where extraordinary feats are possible, and despite the existence of magic, the world is still affected by at least some concepts of physics. As a DM, I occasionally have had to make some unpopular rulings just to preserve some sanity to my games. Luckily, I never have too much issue with players.

If you as a DM think that a rogue wearing shiny black leather couldn't possibly hide in the middle of a flat, barren, snow covered plain on a bright, sunny day without going prone, no matter what his skill bonus is, no matter what feats he has, then that is your perogative. I would never allow it, no matter what the rules may say. Rules can't overrule intelligence and just basic common sense. That's why there's a DM at all, so that insane rulings like that aren't allowed.

So in that case, if you really don't feel like a character could effectively wield a 25 foot spear, even with the monkey grip feat, I say that sounds pretty sensible, and go for it. Usually in circumstances like that, I at least try to offer some sort of alternative to the player, though. The alternative may not be very close to what they were wanting, but I think it is good for players to realize that they can't always be allowed to have whatever they want.

To be fair, if that rogue manages to make a good enough Hide check to hide in the snow despite the penalties for being out in the open, being the wrong color, and all the other factors, he's either using magic items or spells to do so or is high enough level that's he's practically magical anyway. Similarly, in the case of the spear, if you apply a bunch of penalties to the 25-foot spear (-2 Monkey Grip, -4 non-proficiency, -4 unwieldy, etc.) and the character still manages to hit things with it, chances are he's either buffing up to be able to do so or he's high enough level that he's Just That Awesome^TM.

I find that relaxing realism once you get past the levels where you're more fantastic than real life (levels 6 to 9 for most things, particularly the physical skills) tends to work out fairly well...though of course given that Monkey Grip falls behind once you reach those levels, there's not much incentive to take it if you say "You can use it once you're getting into action hero territory," which solves your problem nicely.

 

[Icyshadowlord]

I can agree with this one, but the problem is that this is a more DM-specific thing with the realism and all. Though to be honest I might as well not care. What was the main point of this thread? The reach bonus from a large weapon, and something that had to to with Monkey Grip?

(Also, now I feel a bit annoyed. I don't wanna double post on the thread I made, but it's starting to die out while I still have a question unanswered XD )

 

[Greenfield]

I tend to DM from a more realistic perspective. That is, in a world where extraordinary feats are possible, and despite the existence of magic, the world is still affected by at least some concepts of physics. As a DM, I occasionally have had to make some unpopular rulings just to preserve some sanity to my games. Luckily, I never have too much issue with players.

If you as a DM think that a rogue wearing shiny black leather couldn't possibly hide in the middle of a flat, barren, snow covered plain on a bright, sunny day without going prone, no matter what his skill bonus is, no matter what feats he has, then that is your perogative. I would never allow it, no matter what the rules may say. Rules can't overrule intelligence and just basic common sense. That's why there's a DM at all, so that insane rulings like that aren't allowed.

Actually, he could roll a natural 100 on that D20, and by the rules he'd be visible to anyone.

You need some kind of cover or concealment before you can even make a Hide check.

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

So under the circumstances you described, he can roll anything he likes on that dice, it's just a dice on the table, not a Hide check.

 

[Sekhmet]

Actually, he could roll a natural 100 on that D20, and by the rules he'd be visible to anyone.

You need some kind of cover or concealment before you can even make a Hide check.

So under the circumstances you described, he can roll anything he likes on that dice, it's just a dice on the table, not a Hide check.

Hide in Plain Sight.

 

[Greenfield]

Hide in Plain Sight.

Which allows you to hide *near* cover or concealment, not without it.