That's a good house rule. Creatures (which includes PC's) who are not trained in Stealth, should have to use a standard action to use Stealth. Only creatures trained in stealth should be able to use it as part of another action as the rules state.
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Yet another Stealth post
- Thread starter nillin
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That's a good house rule. Creatures (which includes PC's) who are not trained in Stealth, should have to use a standard action to use Stealth. Only creatures trained in stealth should be able to use it as part of another action as the rules state.
I completely agree! But I also believe that no usage of a skill should ever be a forgone conclusion unless you are THAT GOOD.
[Using stealth as a skill check should be more along the lines of sneaking past guards, scouting ahead of the party in the wilderness or getting into position before a battle actually starts. Using stealth in combat to hide for real (when in dire straights, heavily wounded etc), is also exciting enough to warrant a stealth check if someone is actively looking and wants to do harm to the stealther.
Getting a +2 CA modifier is not a good enough reason to make a separate check. Atleast if the opposition doesn't even have the skill and the player do. It's not about being a foregone conclusion, it's more of an automatic thing, like movement. You roll athletics for special things not for ordinary movement, and yet people do stumble in real life and even more so in movies. Do we really want our heroes to stumble unless there is a plot element to it or the ground is actually "broken" or worse?
The actual check comes when we try to hit the enemy. That's when we can fail... Due to lack of proper CA or lack of skill or circumstance doesn't matter, something went wrong and the power didn't connect. Blame it on a lousy stealth skill if you want to.
But one could implement the rule: If your stealth skill is better than the enemies perception you don't have to roll. That means that the noob will have to roll, but the ninja doesn't and actual skill level will matter.]
So what is the balance against these two methods? Lets analyse!
[I like the format of this short analysis.]
FLANKING
- Is more dangerous (No defense bonus, up in the thick of things)
- Cannot be relied on (Allies will not always be there to provide it)
+ No roll necessary to achieve CA
+ No Resource loss (No action to achieve)
[Want to add: Double bonus due to flanking partner getting his CA at the same time. Kind of important. And being a meleer one should be ready to off-tank a little in order to hold the "line".]
BLUFF
- Resource loss (Standard Action, Encounter Power)
- Roll necessary (Insight vs. Bluff)
+ Can be done with NO Setup (No reliance on any conditions)
[I feel this is more of a last resort when everything else failed, you are a flanking rogue and are alone at the moment, etc. And you will never, ever, in a million years see anyone but a rogue use bluff for CA, and by CA I really mean Sneak attack.]
STEALTH (AS WRITTEN)
+ No resource loss (No action, attached to an action)
+ Defensive/Not Dangerous (Defense bonus, out of the way, Hidden)
+ Can be MOSTLY relied on (Concealment/cover generally available, can be done every turn)
- Roll necessary (Though far too many)
[Compared to the Stealth as written, failing to get CA or sneak attack will be less than 10%. Usually you can hide again, if you are not happy with your first hide check, and a lot of cheese like that. Not that you need it with a +10 on your skill versus their passive perception. Then you have duelis blades, powers (stun, dazed, blinded), friendly controllers, Winters touch, etc, etc to even remove that little chance of failure. All in all, you will end up with close to 100% success rate and get the untargetable status to boot! My suggestion to make it a tough choise between the two is not a boost, it's almost a nerf.]
I believe that stealth needs to be brought in line with these other self motivated actions to gain it.
[I think we should make a difference between the general CA, rogues dependency on CA and the untargetable status of being successfully stealthed. And the solution should be one with very few skill checks, we should aim for none most of the time. Stealth/perception is marginally important at best in a fight compared to attack checks and damage rolls. Let's keep them down to less than 10% of the total rolls. Any more than that would be unproportional for anyone but the rogue.]
Lets brainstorm, peeps!
[Comments in brackets.]
only worry about making active perception rolls for mobs that are actively trying to engage the stealthy git or are engaged by him. (using minor actions of course).
If your passive stealth beats passive perception, then the rest of the combatants can't really help, since they're probably focusing more on the big chunk of metal encased beef, or on the finger twiddlers in the party.
Mechanics wise, go like this "i move to somewhere close to the sneaky git, then ready my minor action to try and spot him when he does ANYTHING, and i ready my std action to react to my perception roll to beat down whatever i spot".
Rogue moves to strike, you get a chance to spot him, if you succede, you get a chance to beat him first, before he stabs you. if you fail, you eat a face full of sneak attack damage and if you survive, you can then beat him back.
you are reacting to your own reaction, and would happen when the rogue moves, thus before the rogue attacks. if you wait to spot his attack, you can't hit back untill the rogue stabs you.
If your passive stealth beats passive perception, then the rest of the combatants can't really help, since they're probably focusing more on the big chunk of metal encased beef, or on the finger twiddlers in the party.
Mechanics wise, go like this "i move to somewhere close to the sneaky git, then ready my minor action to try and spot him when he does ANYTHING, and i ready my std action to react to my perception roll to beat down whatever i spot".
Rogue moves to strike, you get a chance to spot him, if you succede, you get a chance to beat him first, before he stabs you. if you fail, you eat a face full of sneak attack damage and if you survive, you can then beat him back.
you are reacting to your own reaction, and would happen when the rogue moves, thus before the rogue attacks. if you wait to spot his attack, you can't hit back untill the rogue stabs you.
Adding to AngelBob's:
FLANKING
- Is more dangerous (No defense bonus, up in the thick of things)
- Cannot be relied on (Allies will not always be there to provide it)
+ No roll necessary to achieve CA
+ No Resource loss (No action to achieve)
-> + Gives your ally CA as well
-> + Can result in more opportunity attacks and free attacks (i.e. warlord)
BLUFF
- Resource loss (Standard Action, Encounter Power)
- Roll necessary (Insight vs. Bluff)
+ Can be done with NO Setup (No reliance on any conditions)
-> * Bluff has other uses, getting CA is not all it does
STEALTH (AS WRITTEN)
+ No resource loss (No action, attached to an action)
+ Defensive/Not Dangerous (Defense bonus, out of the way, Hidden)
+ Can be MOSTLY relied on (Concealment/cover generally available, can be done every turn)
- Roll necessary (Though far too many)
-> - makes players movement limited to only those squares that grant cover/conceal
-> - Has to be in range to attack after hiding to take advantage of the CA.
Lasting Frost/ Wintertouched
- Two feats
++ reliable at-will ranged or melee CA (i.e. cold dagger).
(makes all other CA gains irrelevant)
FLANKING
- Is more dangerous (No defense bonus, up in the thick of things)
- Cannot be relied on (Allies will not always be there to provide it)
+ No roll necessary to achieve CA
+ No Resource loss (No action to achieve)
-> + Gives your ally CA as well
-> + Can result in more opportunity attacks and free attacks (i.e. warlord)
BLUFF
- Resource loss (Standard Action, Encounter Power)
- Roll necessary (Insight vs. Bluff)
+ Can be done with NO Setup (No reliance on any conditions)
-> * Bluff has other uses, getting CA is not all it does
STEALTH (AS WRITTEN)
+ No resource loss (No action, attached to an action)
+ Defensive/Not Dangerous (Defense bonus, out of the way, Hidden)
+ Can be MOSTLY relied on (Concealment/cover generally available, can be done every turn)
- Roll necessary (Though far too many)
-> - makes players movement limited to only those squares that grant cover/conceal
-> - Has to be in range to attack after hiding to take advantage of the CA.
Lasting Frost/ Wintertouched
- Two feats
++ reliable at-will ranged or melee CA (i.e. cold dagger).
(makes all other CA gains irrelevant)
Clarifying my suggestion:
Stealthing in combat is a trained skill use only.
(Will prevent everyone from trying all the time.)
You can either use stealth as part of an attack in order to get CA...
(If your stealth skill is higher than their perception skill, it is an automatic success. For those with bad stealth skill or versus enemies with good perception you have to make a check versus their passive perception.)
...OR you can hide and become untargetable.
(You don't make a check unless it is needed later during the enemies turn.)
You can only try one of the two each turn.
Enemies that want's to find the untargetable stealther will use one minor action per Perception versus Stealth check, just like the rules state. Enemies can automatically see a stealther who used CA last turn, without spending a minor action (but the stealther still get his cover/concealment bonus to defenses). This last part is a deviation from RAW.
This means that there will only be stealth rolls in combat under these circumstances:
1. The stealther tries to gain CA against a relatively more competent observer. This will not happen in most fights. Remember that moving more than 2'' gives you a -5 on stealth skill for that turn.
2. The stealther choose to become untargetable instead of getting CA, and there actually is an enemy willing to spend a minor action or two to find him. This will happen in some fights, but far from every round. And when it does, it is usually rather important for the outcome of the battle. Will the wounded striker be found and finished off or will he stay down behind his cover?
I would say on average there will not be more than a few stealth checks per ordinary battle. At the worst there will be maybe 2 CA attempts against extra perceptive opponents and maybe one or two attempts to find an untargetable stealther every round. But that should be the exception. Normal to hit checks will far outnumber the stealth v.s perception checks even under those circumstances.
Neither getting CA or untargetable status requires a separate action. And even though you choose to become untargetable, you can still make an attack, just not with the CA bonus.
The practiacal difference between the two actions is your priority. Are you trying to keep your head down and out of the way, and do not concern yourself with when and how you will hit your opponent, then you do the untargetable stealth action.
On the other hand if you don't focus on keeping your head down, everyone will see where you are, but you can wait for the right moment and strike when the taget is distracted, turned away, covered by the tank or maybe you snipe unexpectedly from the other side of the pillar to keep him of guard a little. And you get your +2 CA.
The enemy on the other hand, will see you automatically when you used stealth CA and can target you just fine, even though you might have a cover or concealment bonus to your defense.
When you tried to become untargetable you are really trying to stay out of sight. In order to be able to target you, he will either use an area attack power, or move so you don't have cover any more, or he will use a minor action and try to get a good look at you. He is aware of you, he knows what square you are in most likely, unless you attacked and then stealthed away. And if he decides to use a minor action, he will make a perception test versus your active stealth. No need to roll before we really know that the result will be needed.
Stealthing in combat is a trained skill use only.
(Will prevent everyone from trying all the time.)
You can either use stealth as part of an attack in order to get CA...
(If your stealth skill is higher than their perception skill, it is an automatic success. For those with bad stealth skill or versus enemies with good perception you have to make a check versus their passive perception.)
...OR you can hide and become untargetable.
(You don't make a check unless it is needed later during the enemies turn.)
You can only try one of the two each turn.
Enemies that want's to find the untargetable stealther will use one minor action per Perception versus Stealth check, just like the rules state. Enemies can automatically see a stealther who used CA last turn, without spending a minor action (but the stealther still get his cover/concealment bonus to defenses). This last part is a deviation from RAW.
This means that there will only be stealth rolls in combat under these circumstances:
1. The stealther tries to gain CA against a relatively more competent observer. This will not happen in most fights. Remember that moving more than 2'' gives you a -5 on stealth skill for that turn.
2. The stealther choose to become untargetable instead of getting CA, and there actually is an enemy willing to spend a minor action or two to find him. This will happen in some fights, but far from every round. And when it does, it is usually rather important for the outcome of the battle. Will the wounded striker be found and finished off or will he stay down behind his cover?
I would say on average there will not be more than a few stealth checks per ordinary battle. At the worst there will be maybe 2 CA attempts against extra perceptive opponents and maybe one or two attempts to find an untargetable stealther every round. But that should be the exception. Normal to hit checks will far outnumber the stealth v.s perception checks even under those circumstances.
Neither getting CA or untargetable status requires a separate action. And even though you choose to become untargetable, you can still make an attack, just not with the CA bonus.
The practiacal difference between the two actions is your priority. Are you trying to keep your head down and out of the way, and do not concern yourself with when and how you will hit your opponent, then you do the untargetable stealth action.
On the other hand if you don't focus on keeping your head down, everyone will see where you are, but you can wait for the right moment and strike when the taget is distracted, turned away, covered by the tank or maybe you snipe unexpectedly from the other side of the pillar to keep him of guard a little. And you get your +2 CA.
The enemy on the other hand, will see you automatically when you used stealth CA and can target you just fine, even though you might have a cover or concealment bonus to your defense.
When you tried to become untargetable you are really trying to stay out of sight. In order to be able to target you, he will either use an area attack power, or move so you don't have cover any more, or he will use a minor action and try to get a good look at you. He is aware of you, he knows what square you are in most likely, unless you attacked and then stealthed away. And if he decides to use a minor action, he will make a perception test versus your active stealth. No need to roll before we really know that the result will be needed.
Don't forget the extra damage. That alone almost makes it worth two feats. And the first attack is not automatically a CA attack with this method.
All in all, I think we should realize that a ranged striker with stealth will have CA almost all the time (at least if they are dex based). And that is as it should be I think, at least balance wise. Putting a limitation on untargetable status is more important than nerfing the CA bonus. So my vote goes to automatic CA but not automatic untargetable, if you have a deceant stealth skill that is. And getting both might be a tad too much of a bonus from such an easily available "terraine" feature as cover and concealment (especially if party members also give cover).
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