You Can't Take Short Rests

[Tony Vargas]

What, do you think would be the consequences of this idea:

You cannot take a Short Rest after an encounter?

How do you think such a thing would play? Any tweaks or ideas for me?

Well, I've done this. I ran a Paragon level game at a convention, the premise was that the party had to retrieve a relic before a tidal wave destroyed the city (this was, of course, before the earthquake in Japan), they had under 15 minutes to do it, and faced 3 encounters and a skill challenge. Resting was an option, but the playtest group only rested once - after a brutal and pointlessly frustrating solo encounter that I cut from the final version - and the group at the con didn't rest at all.

The importance of powers gets shifted around. At high levels, like I was running, dailies become much more important, with several being burned off every encounter. Encounters are less powerful than dailies, but suddenly just as scarce. Most healing is in the form of encounter powers, so that could quickly become an issue. I was using pre-gens, so the group had two leaders, with strong healing, and all the characters were weighted towards strong daily utilities.

If you were to try this at lower levels, I suspect healing would be a major problem, at-wills would become the only option all too quickly, and you'd run into 'grind' problems at some point - either towards the middle if the group is being over-cautious with it's dailies & encounters, or at the end, if they run out completely. I think it would be much harder to pull off at low-Heroic than high-heroic or paragon.

This is part of a broader idea I'm having about taking the ability to rest away from the PC's, and putting it in the hands of the DM, so that the DM can control pacing. I'm already having a brainstorm about only allowing extended rests in certain "safe zones" (mostly in towns).

I've seen DMs use this device very effectively. Even in 3e, for that matter, though it felt more heavy-handed. 4e has such a narrative feel that the idea of being 'able to rest' only after hitting some sort of plot point doesn't feel particularly forced.

 

[WalterKovacs]

One situation that involved this kind of thing occured just the other day with our group.

We had just "snuck" into the baddies hideout. I was able to teleport in and Coup de Grace a sleeping enemy (blowing my 1/encounter sneak attack, an encounter power, and resetting my shroud count), and we engaged the two guards. One ran off, while we quickly dispatched the other guy. While we were getting ready to rest up, or deciding to follow the guy who ran off, we were attacked at long range by a couple of other guys. Fearing being attacked from both sides if we waited for the runner to get reinforcements, we went after the ones who were there. They made a fighting retreat to an area with more reinforcements where we had what was basically a real encounter compared to the starting mini-encounter. One of the people from that encounter fellback further, but our group decided it may not be a great idea to continue, fell back and barricaded several doors (as well as found the scrying device that tipped them off to our breaking into the place, which we used to see if we were going to be attacked from that side during our short rest).

The threat of enemies gathering reinforcements when they run away has encouraged us to go on without a short rest a few times. We've also had some fun cases where a medusa was trying to run away by heading through dense forest, but unfortunately the elven druid had lots of speed an terrain ignoring shifts to keep up with her and take her down single handedly.

The layout of the floor can help things out. Lacking a means of baracading themselves into a "safe" place, any short rest could be interupted. Thus luring them in to prevent an easy exit is important (and it also gives the party a means to rest if necessary ... fighting their way back to the entrance to "escape" ... which can get them a rest but will probably make the encounter harder (as the enemies can use that time to regroup, organize, etc. From our example, during our short rest, the enemy we chased off also healed herself.

Having some sniper positions can also push the player's along ... if the enemy is able to shoot at them without it being easy to fight back, the player's will likely have to go elsewhere. So traps, murder holes, arrow slits, etc can help in that department.

It is important to keep in mind what the player's are capable of. Some people have dailies or encounters that are useful for clearing multiple enemies at once, while others have powerful single target effects. If there is a mix of reasonably sized groups (likely using minions), as well as tough opponent's (elites probably), then there will be situations where either power is useful. Encounter long effects that are locked in place are weaker (and will likely encourage the group to try and draw enemies into a fight in one particular area), while others (stances, barbarian rages, weapon boosters from artificer) will be extremely powerful if the clock isn't ticking. If the player's know they only have five minutes before the rage wears off, that will definitely encourage them to ignore the attempt at a short rest and keep moving.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Y'know, I'm signed up to run Essentials at KublaCon, and I wanted to evoke the old dungeon-crawl feel a little bit, but still keep it short. Breaking up a big theoretical encounter into room-by-room mini-encounters like this could be just the way to do that... hm. Could work.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Some interesting ideas in this thread which have my creative juices flowing all of a sudden. Which is grand 'cos they seem too few and far between of late.

The link to Gabe's thread has some fantastic ideas. I especially liked the loot cards to add a fun randomness to treasure distribution, especially because you could throw in some fun, wacky (non-standard) stuff in there.

I also think the key to making something like this 'extended' encounter work is building in the mechanic where

a) Taking a short rest is constantly impossible/highly risky
b) It is possible through certain actions or reaching certain areas to recharge powers or receive healing

If you establish an 'encounter area', let's say, each level of the dungeon in this case, there needs to be a reason that the PCs can't take a 5 minutes rest by closing the door of the room they are in. This reason needs to make sense, be fun, challenging and add the right amount of tension. I'd even propose building in ways to counteract this constant threat, either disabling it totally or disabling it temporarily. So Short Rests aren't a given but they can be achieved through clever play. But what I don't think you can do is simply say: 'This level of the dungeon counts as an encounter area, you can't rest til you've cleared it or find the stairs to the next level. Because my immeadiate question as a player would be: Why? I think there needs to be a decent answer to that question.

Right, although I think it is fine to provide some short rest opportunities now and then.

I've always been of a mind with monsters that they're generally not 'stupid' (they may be unintelligent, but if they were easy pickings they'd be extinct long ago). Intelligent monsters will organize themselves for defense to some degree. Guards will be able to fall back, arrangements will be made to delay the enemy, escape routes will exist, etc. Any lair type location is going to have to be dealt with in a systematic way, and you're not going to be able to just take it all room-by-room with a 5 minute rest because those orcs are going to counter-attack, and those kruthiks are going to swarm, etc. Any creature that has survived for long at all is either avoiding fights or knows to fight with all its strength from the very start.

So, when you hit the orc lair you better be ready to go in like a SWAT team, once that operation starts there's not going to be rests until maybe you reach a stalemate or a negotiating spot. OTOH the interesting and cool way to run these kinds of things is to be a bit realistic about it. There are a whole slew of orcs in that there cave complex, but if you go in fast, hit hard, and don't hesitate MOST of them will be caught with their pants down because lets face it, your average orc isn't on guard duty 24/7 or anything close. So things work both ways, you run into a lot of the enemy without getting a short rest, but you also find them FAR less prepared.

If a group instead tries to move in, short rest, move forward then either the orcs withdraw, they all get their armor on and mass attack, or maybe half of them sneak out the back entrance and hit the party from the rear...

Integrating the 'dungeon' into the storyline more helps too. What would an orc tribe be doing? Raiding, hunting, patrolling, etc. You aren't just coming for them, they're coming for you too. Marching on out into the countryside to get to their lair should be as tough as what happens next, and it might be a real shame if you run into a Level+4 orc patrol that is mounted and moves faster than the party...

I guess the upshot is I don't think the 5 minute episodic combat encounter logic is realistic enough that you need to justify not using it. There are situations where it does make sense, but probably many more where it really doesn't.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Integrating the 'dungeon' into the storyline more helps too. What would an orc tribe be doing? Raiding, hunting, patrolling, etc. You aren't just coming for them, they're coming for you too. Marching on out into the countryside to get to their lair should be as tough as what happens next, and it might be a real shame if you run into a Level+4 orc patrol that is mounted and moves faster than the party...

The raiding/hunting/patrol concept works to make things create some time sensitive options for the player.

On the way in, they want to make sure any group they encounter they either avoid completely, or destroy completely (or at least, make it impossible for whoever is remaining to alert other groups). However, if they sneak past all the patrols and get to the lair, the patrols will eventually return. In which case, the group either slowly clears out the lair and ends up getting the patrols showing up during a fight OR if they clear the whole lair with fewer rests they can either escape, or set up ambushes for the returning patrols.

On the flip side, if they do slaughter a patrol ... there is a time limit to when that patrol would be expected back. If they kill a patrol, rest, kill a patrol, rest, etc ... they'll likely alert the lair that someone is killing patrols, and either they'll send out tougher patrols OR pull everyone back into the lair and set up a tougher battle.

So, in this way the group is given a meaningful option. They can make encounters easier NOW (by resting) at the risk of making later fights tougher. Or they can push forward now in the hopes of making later fights easier (or at least, at a more even level). In some cases (i.e. clearing out the lair with few if any rests), they can also earn a consequence free rest. (i.e. they can rest while they wait to ambush returning patrols.)

Also, if the players understand the risk/reward, they'll probably try to avoid rests, but take them when they are desperate, since resting when you don't need to makes things tougher in the long run without necessarily making things that much easier in the short term.

 

[TarionzCousin]

The key point is that you only gain XP when you hit a predetermined spot in the dungeon. You need to include that or else you'll break the game (by creating an optimal solution).

Hmmm.... What could we call those spots? Check points?

I posted this smart-ass response in lieu of merely bookmarking this interesting thread.

 

[LostSoul]

I would call them "Quests", since that works it into the established currency of the game.

*

There's an interesting question here: do you want to let the DM decide when the PCs can rest, or leave that decision up to the players?

Discuss.

 

[Ryujin]

I would call them "Quests", since that works it into the established currency of the game.

*

There's an interesting question here: do you want to let the DM decide when the PCs can rest, or leave that decision up to the players?

Discuss.

If it's left completely to the players, then we're back to the "15 minute day" scenario, or even a "5 minute day."

If it's completely up to the DM, then the players feel that they have no control.

As in most things, in life, striking a balance is the key.

 

[OSEZNO]

There's an interesting question here: do you want to let the DM decide when the PCs can rest, or leave that decision up to the players?

Discuss.

I say it's the PC's decision when to rest.

It's the DM's decision if they finish their rest without interruption or if they complete the rest. If the party had a rough fight and wants to sleep for 8 hours, it might make sense for them to do so if they're right outside of a town, or something to that affect, but behind enemy lines or in the wilderness, it is unlikely they will have a 5 or 15 minute day, if I have anything to say about it.

 

[LostSoul]

If it's left completely to the players, then we're back to the "15 minute day" scenario, or even a "5 minute day."

To avoid that we'd want to assign rests a cost. Then the players would have a meaningful choice - to rest or not to rest? I don't know if you always want a cost assigned to rests (eg. after you've cleared out the dungeon), but that's one way to deal with the issue.

XP, GP, time, story development - these are the standard costs.

If it's completely up to the DM, then the players feel that they have no control.

Which would be true. However, I can imagine some players wanting that kind of game. If the DM is the one who bears the responsibility for the "story" working out properly, then the DM should decide when PCs can take a short rest or not.