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You don't like the new edition? Tell me about it!

sinecure said:
Personally, I blame the Forge and vocabulary of gaming they created out of the spite they had for 99% of games and gamers. It's now infected D&D so it has become nothing but a miniatures game with a single "narrative" mechanic tacked on. It's the least ROLEPLAY-oriented game with the title of RPG that I've ever read. I mean, I can call Chess a role-playing game, but how dumb would that be?

I chalk it up to the badly mistaken notion I've heard some of the developers claim that (paraphrasing) "Any game can be roleplayed. It's not some rule you add to the system". These guys have been locked in the maze too long.
That's a pretty good rant and I give you props for it... but I have no idea what this actually means. I know it's hip to pick on the Forge, but they closed their theory forum like three years ago (seriously) so unless they've spent that time building Orbital Mind Control Lasers I think you might possibly be blaming the wrong people. :)

To be fair, I assume you mean that some of the concepts, which are similar to concepts fairly recently introduced in some small-press games, are fundamentally incompatible with how you prefer to roleplay. Fair enough. I don't think any one game can make every style of player happy.

It seems to me like the PHB gives advice on roleplaying your character, and the DMG gives advice on presenting sessions where that roleplay is integrated into the mechanical game play. I agree that the mechanics and the roleplay elements integrate differently than they did in past versions of D&D, and that some people don't like it, sure.

What I don't like? Not really fond of Dragonborn. They just kinda bug me. Probably because they just didn't spark any ideas, and the other classes did. No biggie, I'm sure plenty of people like em.
 

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Raven Crowking said:
fundamentally?!? Not sure I agree with you here.
I must again profess ignorance of the actual rules, but if I am not mistaken, D&D "evolved" from war-gaming, and the original rules contained a lot of combat rules, spells and traps. A real skill system that could mechanically support anything going beyond combat or dungeon-exploration was introduced a lot later (either with the so-called "Non-Weapon" Profiencies in AD&D, or the fully-fledged 3E skill system.)


Personally, I blame the Forge and vocabulary of gaming they created out of the spite they had for 99% of games and gamers. It's now infected D&D so it has become nothing but a miniatures game with a single "narrative" mechanic tacked on. It's the least ROLEPLAY-oriented game with the title of RPG that I've ever read. I mean, I can call Chess a role-playing game, but how dumb would that be?

I chalk it up to the badly mistaken notion I've heard some of the developers claim that (paraphrasing) "Any game can be roleplayed. It's not some rule you add to the system". These guys have been locked in the maze too long.
I think the designers actually kept away a lot from the Forgismn. Many discussions on these boards are often discussing the G-N-S terms, but I think I never saw any of the designers chiming in. I think they are aware of the G-N-S terms, but only took what's actually useful to them.

I mean, I can call Chess a role-playing game, but how dumb would that be?
Yes, because there are no roles in chess. If you were playing a specific chess piece, instead of the guy controlling all of the pieces, you might actually get closer to a role-playing game.
Monopoly is also not a role-playing game, because the game doesn't care if you're a car or a shoe.

D&D in all its editions cared about whether you're a Fighter, a Rogue, a Wizard or a Cleric. These 4 classes basically where the original 4 roles, and where later expanded upon. These roles were combat roles, and also had out-of-combat roles. (A Fighter being a kind of Leader, a Cleric being a spiritual person, a Rogue typically being some kind of Thief or ... "criminal", the Wizard being a Sage).
 

SweeneyTodd said:
I agree that the mechanics and the roleplay elements integrate differently than they did in past versions of D&D, and that some people don't like it, sure.
It's not that I don't care for them. It's that the two are completely incompatible with each other as it stands. You cannot both roleplay and play the minis game they've got going on. In fact, the game plays better and faster if you don't tack on how your abilities work in the imagined world. "They just do" is so much easier.

And the lasting embittered nonsense before the Forge closed its' forums has had a detrimental effect on gaming as a whole. That their pigeon-holing of D&D back at the turn of the century has now infected the actual publishers only means the game has willfully dived into a hole and is calling itself a pigeon. As D&D is the greatest RPG ever (in my humble opinion) this kind of behavior makes RPGs everywhere look bad.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
D&D in all its editions cared about whether you're a Fighter, a Rogue, a Wizard or a Cleric. These 4 classes basically where the original 4 roles, and where later expanded upon. These roles were combat roles, and also had out-of-combat roles. (A Fighter being a kind of Leader, a Cleric being a spiritual person, a Rogue typically being some kind of Thief or ... "criminal", the Wizard being a Sage).
Not quite true. I agree with most of your post, incidentally. But 4 classes initially? No.

No Thieves, at the very beginning. :)

/nitpick
 

mostly I don't get it

I haven't been here for a while because a) I was disappointed to see this particular part of the forum turn into all edition wars, all the time, and b) I realized that I don't get 4e – I don't know what I can do with it.

That's not true in the broadest sense – you have the players roll up characters and you tell them the adventures they have. I could make a railroad with 4e pretty easy. But it seems like, in general, with the new edition, you have to do a lot more conceptual work to read the tea leaves of what happens when you look at the game mechanics and roll the dice. I've always been kind of concerned about that, but a few weeks ago I realized I basically have no idea what goes on in a 4e fight.

Ok, hit points have always been pretty abstract, sure, but simply enough: when somebody swings a sword at a PC, and hits, and gets to roll damage dice, they've made some sort of contact. If they miss, there is no real contact.

New edition, we have things like the pally's divine challenge and the fighter powers that inflict damage on a miss and things that suggest that ablating hit points is basically a matter of gaining – to use a term that has a different technical meaning in 4e – combat advantage over your foes, to the point where you can dispatch them with a final blow. Which is fine as a system, and which is why I don't mind fighters doing damage on a miss out of general principle. But.

How the hell do you narrate that? The transfer of combat superiority? "You see the knight's parries weaken, his movements grow more hesitant"? Ok, but over and over again, fight after fight after fight after fight? "You hit, he misses" may be rote, but at least it's short. This is work. Conceptual work that the rules don't seem to cover, conceptual work that you have to do over and over again – unless whenever a fight comes up, break immersion, play a little loading screen, go into the abstract (but possibly fun) combat mode, and then go back into narrating.

Or take minions, a concept I don't really have a broad problem with, except if – as I've read – there's a huge gulf between minions and non-minions in their ability to take punishment. What do I mean? Well, you could implement minions in 3.x if you wanted, and they might fit in fairly well, because in 3.x it's perfectly possible to drop a "regular" monster in one shot. In 4e it appears that you have the monsters that drop in a hit, and the monsters you swing at and swing at and swing at until you finally manage to skewer the beastie. Over and over again. In – not each fight, perhaps, but many of them.

To take the minion vs. divine challenge example, how do you describe that? Because here's how I'd like to describe it: "The paladin stops, bellows, and points his sword at the kobold. 'Stop, cur, and bring your blade at me, if you have any honor at all!' But the kobold just stares agape and trembles as its sickle drops nervelessly from its fingers. Sobbing, it curls up in a heap." Sounds like something that could happen! But so now morale failure is a possible consequence of losing all your hit points? It goes back to the roots of wargaming, I suppose, where a "killed" unit can either be destroyed or abandoned or disabled or any number of things that render it combat-incapable, but that's a little abstract for a game that deals with scenarios where you could (in your imagination) see all the characters' faces.

There seem to be a ton of little narrative hurdles like that, and until I see how or if people deal with that I don't think I'm going to buy into this new edition because I can't see what it looks like in my head.

Addendum:
Also – if 4e is fundamentally about killing horrible monsters, then the part when I kill the horrible monsters should be the very last spot where I have to break immersion in order to play the game!
 
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Aus_Snow said:
Not quite true. I agree with most of your post, incidentally. But 4 classes initially? No.

No Thieves, at the very beginning. :)

/nitpick
Nitpick duly noted. You are, off course, right.

Does this mean that, theoretically, people could consider a game without Rogues (say, 5E) be D&D? ;)
Or are there some "advancements" made in D&D that should never be taken away?

----

To take the minion vs. divine challenge example, how do you describe that? Because here's how I'd like to describe it: "The paladin stops, bellows, and points his sword at the kobold. 'Stop, cur, and bring your blade at me, if you have any honor at all!' But the kobold just stares agape and trembles as its sickle drops nervelessly from its fingers. Sobbing, it curls up in a heap."
The divine challenge _is_ magic. You don't have to describe it with moral damage. (In fact, it deals radiant damage, if I am not mistaken). So, you should increase your SFX budget and spend some money on radiant energy coming from either the Paladin or the Sky when the Kobold is challenged...

How the hell do you narrate that? The transfer of combat superiority? "You see the knight's parries weaken, his movements grow more hesitant"? Ok, but over and over again, fight after fight after fight after fight?
The Fighters blows are so strong and so aggressive that, while the enemy can avoid any real contact with his blade, he is still forced to make extreme, strenuous evasive actions. I hope after the Paladins Divine Challenge, you still have some money left for a good stunt choreographer to pull this off.

[/D&D movie production tips]
 


Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Nitpick duly noted. You are, off course, right.
'Off course.' Heh. Yeah, that too. :D


Does this mean that, theoretically, people could consider a game without Rogues (say, 5E) be D&D? ;)
Of course. This is the reason I'm waiting for 5th ed.


Or are there some "advancements" made in D&D that should never be taken away?
Indeed. Like say, playing those figures characters, rather than just moving them around the map/grid.



Oh wait. . . ;)
 

Felix said:
I forget where I read it, but I had heard that 4e was going to implement a mechanic whereby your race would give you more abilities as you level up, making your choice of race much more relevant at high levels, and making an orc fighter distinct from a similarly built dwarf fighter.

But it turned out not to be the case. And that was the *one* mechanic I was keen on seeing.

And then they went and kicked Vancian magic right in the junk. 4e may be a pretty, well-executed kick in the junk with the best of intentions, but I'm still walking funny.

Yeah, I was pretty excited about this one to, but to be honest, its not really a great idea. Races would easily be to specialized and making alot of different, but generally usefull racial progression,(also considering all the races that are coming later) would be something that could never really work right.

Other than that, it would bug a player like me, if only player races would have such a progression. I would want all races to have it.
 

Stoat said:
Well, I hope you get better!

I'm curious to hear why folks don't think 4E supports world-building. When I hear the term, I think of political machinations, organizations with conflicting goals, NPC personalities, geographical features, and ancient histories. I think of these sorts of things as being largely independent of the rules.

What don't I like?

I don't like what they've done with gnomes.

The whole math and mechanics in 4E, makes the game feel like a facade(to me, that is). 3.5 feels like a world to me.
 

Into the Woods

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