Particle_Man
Explorer
I can sell the game to potential first dates by emphasizing its cooperative nature, and they don't flee screaming. 
You know 4th edition has succeeded when...
SavageRobby
First Post
I'm glad the 4e folks are experiencing all these cool things with the system - better immersion, no spreadsheets, instant prep time, better realization of character concepts, wives and girlfriends interested in gaming ...
... We had that kind of revolution years ago at our table when we switched to Savage Worlds.
... We had that kind of revolution years ago at our table when we switched to Savage Worlds.
Wormwood
Adventurer
Or Buffy, Cthulhu or Spirit of the Century or any of the other games we play.... We had that kind of revolution years ago at our table when we switched to Savage Worlds.
I'm just crowing about 4e because it brought D&D into the rotation.
What can I say!
Now I've got 2 other people as benchwarmers for my game.
basically there is one base member that has become exceedingly erratic: He says he will make it to the session and doesn't or comes and looks puzzled all session and leaves early alleging an emergency.
He is my friend and even then I don't like to intrude in his personal business but it is kind of hurting the group's ability to enjoy the game.
So the girls that are playing with me brought 1 more each with the premise they were having sooo much fun that they wanted to try it.
And now I am way over my head with PC's! 8 WTF, so I told them that I will accept 6 and put the others in the benchwarmer for a benchwarmer.
One of the players is then thinking of addingn the benchwarmers+me+other 2 people in another group whic is awesome!
Nothing to do with 4th edition but it sure helped that the game is easy to learn: EVERYTHING IS ON THE PAGE!
Now I've got 2 other people as benchwarmers for my game.
basically there is one base member that has become exceedingly erratic: He says he will make it to the session and doesn't or comes and looks puzzled all session and leaves early alleging an emergency.
He is my friend and even then I don't like to intrude in his personal business but it is kind of hurting the group's ability to enjoy the game.
So the girls that are playing with me brought 1 more each with the premise they were having sooo much fun that they wanted to try it.
And now I am way over my head with PC's! 8 WTF, so I told them that I will accept 6 and put the others in the benchwarmer for a benchwarmer.
One of the players is then thinking of addingn the benchwarmers+me+other 2 people in another group whic is awesome!
Nothing to do with 4th edition but it sure helped that the game is easy to learn: EVERYTHING IS ON THE PAGE!
SavageRobby
First Post
Which is A Good Thing, I'll wholeheartedly agree.
JoeGKushner
First Post
What were you using the spreadsheets for?
I've used them to calculate xp because of the way 3.5 does cr vs level but that's about it. Curious as to what other people use 'em for.
Gothmog
First Post
There's tons to love about 4e. Some of my highlights:
1. Better mathematical scaling through levels
2. Ease of prep time, and game prep is FUN again!
3. The powers system is awesome and and very fun- no character is useless anymore or plays henchman to overpowered spellcasters.
4. Players are encouraged to work as a team and shine, rather than as individual stars. Party cohesion is tighter, which leads me to...
5. 4e is more roleplaying friendly. Yes, I've heard the screaming and ranting of taking out the profession and craft skills, but thats not what I'm taking about. What I have found in practice is that because tactics and teamwork are the focus of 4e rather than rules mastery, that the players tend to work better together as a team and come up with ideas as a group. That pulls people more into their roles as their characters and thinking as their characters, rather than distancing themselves from their roles and seeing their characters as simply numerical representations to milk every possible bonus out of their stats for optimal success. Its a subtle distinction to be sure, but its something I've noticed becoming more and more pronounced the more I've played and run 4e. And yes, I added back in profession and craft skills- I let every character take two trained skills not on the list in the PHB at character creation, but they are free to come up with some suitably narrow skill, such as cartography, carpentry, armorsmith, jeweler, etc.
6. Its harder to overtly powergame in 4e. System mastery is no longer paramount, instead cooperation, good ideas, and teamwork are.
7. Fast paced combat that feels dynamic and fluid.
8. Gear is less important than the character's core abilities. Something is seriously wrong when PCs fear losing their gear more than death.
9. I've always been a fan of minis. I love collecting them, painting them, and using them during a game. Integrating the minis into combat has been a big plus for me and my group. 4e has the most clear and concise rules of any D&D game to date, and it plays sooooo smoothly. I found my attentional resources have been freed up greatly not having to worry about monster feats, touch AC vs flat-footed AC vs normal AC, etc.
10. Rituals are awesome. I love the flavor of them and that they can be available to anybody with the right training. I anticipate seeing a lot of the "missing" spells from the previous versions of the game showing up as rituals. I also like the increased time requirements of rituals- it requires some player forethought, and I've already seen some very creative uses of rituals. I always felt magic in previous versions of D&D was too easy and quick, and rituals make magic feel more "magical". Plus, rituals allow me to simualte movies, books, and legends better than previous versions of D&D did- how many times have we seen someone untrained in magic bumble a ritual and cause all kinds of havoc? (klatu-verata-nik...coughcoughcough).
11. Last but not least, 4e feels more like D&D to me and my group than anything has in a long time. 3e never felt like D&D to me- the rules were too much in the foreground and overly complicated and interconnected, and it felt limiting or constraining to us, despite (or maybe because of) all the options the rules present and the assumed magic levels and mathematical model. True, 4e mechanics are different and streamlined for AD&D 1e, but the feel of the game is more like 1e- and thats an awesome thing!!! I can't exactly explain why though. Maybe its because monsters are new and interesting again, maybe its the more rules-transparent nature of 4e, maybe its the lower assumed magic level, or maybe all of these, as well as something I haven't put my finger on. I can see design elements the designers were trying to replicate from 1e to get that "old school" feel back, while still keeping the game modern and easy to understand.
1. Better mathematical scaling through levels
2. Ease of prep time, and game prep is FUN again!
3. The powers system is awesome and and very fun- no character is useless anymore or plays henchman to overpowered spellcasters.
4. Players are encouraged to work as a team and shine, rather than as individual stars. Party cohesion is tighter, which leads me to...
5. 4e is more roleplaying friendly. Yes, I've heard the screaming and ranting of taking out the profession and craft skills, but thats not what I'm taking about. What I have found in practice is that because tactics and teamwork are the focus of 4e rather than rules mastery, that the players tend to work better together as a team and come up with ideas as a group. That pulls people more into their roles as their characters and thinking as their characters, rather than distancing themselves from their roles and seeing their characters as simply numerical representations to milk every possible bonus out of their stats for optimal success. Its a subtle distinction to be sure, but its something I've noticed becoming more and more pronounced the more I've played and run 4e. And yes, I added back in profession and craft skills- I let every character take two trained skills not on the list in the PHB at character creation, but they are free to come up with some suitably narrow skill, such as cartography, carpentry, armorsmith, jeweler, etc.
6. Its harder to overtly powergame in 4e. System mastery is no longer paramount, instead cooperation, good ideas, and teamwork are.
7. Fast paced combat that feels dynamic and fluid.
8. Gear is less important than the character's core abilities. Something is seriously wrong when PCs fear losing their gear more than death.
9. I've always been a fan of minis. I love collecting them, painting them, and using them during a game. Integrating the minis into combat has been a big plus for me and my group. 4e has the most clear and concise rules of any D&D game to date, and it plays sooooo smoothly. I found my attentional resources have been freed up greatly not having to worry about monster feats, touch AC vs flat-footed AC vs normal AC, etc.
10. Rituals are awesome. I love the flavor of them and that they can be available to anybody with the right training. I anticipate seeing a lot of the "missing" spells from the previous versions of the game showing up as rituals. I also like the increased time requirements of rituals- it requires some player forethought, and I've already seen some very creative uses of rituals. I always felt magic in previous versions of D&D was too easy and quick, and rituals make magic feel more "magical". Plus, rituals allow me to simualte movies, books, and legends better than previous versions of D&D did- how many times have we seen someone untrained in magic bumble a ritual and cause all kinds of havoc? (klatu-verata-nik...coughcoughcough).
11. Last but not least, 4e feels more like D&D to me and my group than anything has in a long time. 3e never felt like D&D to me- the rules were too much in the foreground and overly complicated and interconnected, and it felt limiting or constraining to us, despite (or maybe because of) all the options the rules present and the assumed magic levels and mathematical model. True, 4e mechanics are different and streamlined for AD&D 1e, but the feel of the game is more like 1e- and thats an awesome thing!!! I can't exactly explain why though. Maybe its because monsters are new and interesting again, maybe its the more rules-transparent nature of 4e, maybe its the lower assumed magic level, or maybe all of these, as well as something I haven't put my finger on. I can see design elements the designers were trying to replicate from 1e to get that "old school" feel back, while still keeping the game modern and easy to understand.
Good lord I remember that adventure. I played it after taking the MCATs for an entire day. I ended up being away from the rest of the party running on my own for most of the night, still brain dead from an 9 hour testing session.
I think people will agree that 4ed is a success when WOTC announces 5ed in 5+ years and everyone starts complaining about how they have everything just right and there is no need for another rules variation.
I haven't played 4ed yet, but I will note that I created a character in 30 minutes or less the other night for an online game. That certainly has to be a plus for some people.
Hawkeye
WOTC inherited D&D from TSR. TSR didn't update as frequently as it should have, which is why it went down the tubes. When you're trying to win the game with a quarterback with a wooden leg, you can't expect to get very far. 2e survived for so long because TSR, or more specifically Lorraine Williams, was sinking cash into the bleeding cow to keep it on life support. After WOTC acquired TSR, then they gave the game some tweaks they thought would work. Being the original 2e D&D crew, they kept the sacred cows because they didn't realize the sacred cows were the problem. But as new blood was infused they could see them for what they were. 3.5 was hemorrhaging in the same way as 2e, despite the so-called "fundamental" differences. Now we have a properly redesigned game that is already showing its strength. The sacred cows are slaughtered and their worshipers are throwing themselves on the fire. That's fine with me. That just means fewer elitists to bog things down.
Similar Threads
