Your best 13th Age thing

[Ahnehnois]

To me this is a "feature" not a bug. I think you miss the point of backgrounds entirely because you're viewing 13th Age backgrounds through the traditional D&D lens as a game of strategically managing limited resources. Hence the misplaced concern that a player is somehow "getting away with something" they shouldn't if they create a broad encompassing background.

That sounds great, except that I wouldn't characterize that viewpoint as a "D&D lens". It's certainly a perspective, and perhaps one associated with D&D, but I would say that D&D is inherently that way.

It does sound like 13th Age better facilitates a certain open-endedness in storytelling.

 

[Balesir]

To me this is a "feature" not a bug. I think you miss the point of backgrounds entirely because you're viewing 13th Age backgrounds through the traditional D&D lens as a game of strategically managing limited resources. Hence the misplaced concern that a player is somehow "getting away with something" they shouldn't if they create a broad encompassing background.

I'm certainly aware of the shift in paradigm - and in fact that's the root of my concern. What I'm worried about is where the players' heads are at; I don't want it to be in a gamist region of figuring out ways that they can get their background to be relevant by inventing wierd connections and artificial linkages. I want to take all that off the table; that's what Primetime Adventures does quite successfully. The "choosing of skill" mini-game you talk about is just one facet of this same issue - the other facet is the finagling a contrived story about why tumbling is useful for charming the handsome prince (for example).

There are two 'legs' to getting around this, in my experience. First is taking the "resources" bit and, since you can't get rid of it altogether while still leaving anything of substance in "backgrounds" (which, as you say, are meant to be a player route to contributing to the setting), making it really simple. PTA does this by saying you can use each background N times per session - but note that the use of backgrounds can be completely at the players' discretion. You don't need to finagle some sort of 'special use' or contrived story and get it past the GM - just make up a cool description and run with it. Choose when to use it, sure - at least, don't use it frivolously, because you only get so many goes. But don't sweat the justification.

The second leg is related to "Fail Forward" but is more like BWs "Let It Ride". This basically amounts to "only roll for something once" - if a character succeeds, they get the whole cake. No second rolls or multiple successes required - if you succeed, you really succeed. This also relates to the "resource game" thing; you don't need to worry that, by using your bonus on a roll for something that is important to you, you are going to be suckered because "that roll only gets you half way - now you have to make the really difficult roll!" If you are rolling to capture the fleeing spy, for instance, then a success captures the spy - it doesn't mean "you gained on her"*.

By saying "whichever background you choose, it will work when you need it to" and "you only get limited bonuses, so choose what to use them for - but if you use them you will get the benefit for what you are rolling for, not just part-way" I find (taking PTA as my guide) that you can channel the resource game into the story by making the decision to use/not use about "is this important to my character" rather than "is this something I can swing?" or "is this potentially profitable?"


*: If you want a multiple roll "skill challenge" type affair for dramatic tension, you could just say "the bonus applies to one challenge, not to just one roll". That's well within the spirit of what I'm trying to get at, here.

 

[Warbringer]

There is certainly no wrong or right way to play. But my take is that by giving them X uses of their background per session, or per day, or whatever, you're essentially turning the use of Backgrounds back into a resource to be strategically managed. You're telling the player they get an X% worth of bonus percentage points towards your successes today, better use them judiciously. So, I can see why from your perspective you might consider it a rules abuse if the player gets what you feel is a free unlimited use of their background.

Nothing wrong if thats the way you like to play. But that's not how I perceive the game was intended to work. Which is not about backgrounds being a game resource to be managed, but more about an enabler of fiction. I've posted this before, but the players getting their bonus every time isn't the problem, its them getting the bonus every time but making it routine and boring.

If the players get the bonus every time, but the game is interesting and fresh, then who cares? That's really the point of the game. Also, mechanically, even getting the full +5 bonus just drops the difficulty by one degree. There is still a chance of failure. But again, with Fail Forward, the emphasis of the game is on making things interesting, not on beating the resource management mini-game by hoarding your daily allotment of background usages for when you need them.

Now if you like the resource management aspect of it, and you derive enjoyment from pulling out that bonus you had in your back pocket for when you need it, then more power to you. The cool thing about 13th Age is its really easy to house rule things to suit your tastes.

I don't particularly like the resource management "addendum" I created, but want to really encourage the players in this game to really think about all aspects of their character background and app,y those that aren't necessarily as "big and important". I guess I just don't want them spamming without a narrative.

You're absolutely right that with fail forward they really are just about reducing the chance of some complication, and if I really want the tension when making a check (+9 vs 15 really doesn't doi it ) then I can throw a couple more "hard" challenges in there.

Maybe next time I'll just set the max bonus at +3, again, just for more range in the backgrounds.

 

[Weather Report]

Not sure... How lame did you think it would be? As lame as a poster coming into a thread to write a one sentence threadcrap with no substance??

No, I don't think 13th Age is that lame.

So, as I asked earlier, what's with the TotM/Zone deal, or is it forbidden to talk about? *insert cheesy emoticon*

 

[Balesir]

So, as I asked earlier, what's with the TotM/Zone deal, or is it forbidden to talk about? *insert cheesy emoticon*

It's not forbidden lore (repeat cheesy emoticon), but the basics of it are extremely simple. There are three ranges - engaged, nearby and far away. You are at one of those ranges to everything in the battle. If you are nearby, you can engage and you might be able to intercept an enemy trying to engage one of your allies. If you are engaged you are "stuck" fighting what you are engeged with unless you successfully "disengage" or suffer free attack(s) for moving away.

The real nub of the system, though, is the character powers (by which I mean generically spells, manoeuvres, ranged attacks of various sorts and so on). These are designed to work with the "zones" system. They don't say things like "bursts in a 30-foot cone", they say "affects X creatures in a group nearby". If you are engaged with other creatures, you are "in a group". The number of these instances is way too high to go through them all - it would probably constitute copyright infringement! (another cheesy emoticion)

 

[WhatGravitas]

The neat thing about the zones is also that they encompass moving - if somebody's nearby, you reach it in one move, far away is two moves. This almost perfectly maps to average-sized rooms in dungeons! Nearby are creatures in the same room, far away the next room, engaged is regular old melee.

 

[Morrus]

The neat thing about the zones is also that they encompass moving - if somebody's nearby, you reach it in one move, far away is two moves. This almost perfectly maps to average-sized rooms in dungeons! Nearby are creatures in the same room, far away the next room, engaged is regular old melee.

It's an old idea, but it still works!

 

[Ratskinner]

I'm surprised the escalation die got so few votes. Seems OUT and Backgrounds are the leaders.

I do like Backgrounds. It's how I thought D&D Next was developing a year ago.

Put me down as a +1 for that.

I had a lot of trouble choosing for this poll. There's a lot of streamlined stuff in 13th Age that I was hoping would be in Next...and yet somehow isn't.

 

[Weather Report]

Thanks Balesir and WhatGravitas for the Zone info, nifty, I have used a similar setup back in the day with 1st/2nd Ed.

 

[Balesir]

Thanks Balesir and WhatGravitas for the Zone info, nifty, I have used a similar setup back in the day with 1st/2nd Ed.

Sure - Powers & Perils (remember that?) had a kind-of-formalised version (it had hexes, but they were big and to fight hand-to-hand you had to be in the same hex), too. What you get with 13th Age is basically D&D but with the spells and such written for the "zones", so you don't have to houserule them either in advance or on the fly.