Your preference for how "fragile" 1st-level character should be

[1 hp]

I have no fun DMing levels 1-2. In one round, a party can go from perfectly healthy to facing the prospect of a TPK. From tangling with a pack of dogs.

Plus, it's strange to have hit points double from level 1 to level 2. Doubling is huge! One day you have 10 hps, the next day 20? That has always bugged me.

On the other hand, if a PC started with 30 hps, when she made level 2 and gained, say, 10 more hps, her hps will have increased only by a third. Much better, I think.

 

[CleverNickName]

Given the proliferation of new abilities that will permit any character to be able to heal damage, and given the ease at which characters can be raised from the dead, I really don't see why players and DMs alike are even concerned about it.

I voted for fragile. If characters need to be tougher, at any given level, they can take the Toughness feat. (I hear it is getting rebuilt into a less-sucky version.)

 

[Rechan]

DM here, tougher PCs.

I am terrified of killing PCs unnecessarily. I don't think PC death should occur unless 1) It's dramatic, 2) It's in a long fight, or 3) The player did something Stupid and deserved it.

I want to throw something more impressive than rats and skeletons at 1st level PCs. That is, after all, not heroic or exciting to me. Even a rookie cop shouldn't have to patrol the playground and escort old ladies across the street because a surly bum could kill him.

The one reason I dislike starting at 3rd level or so, is because too soon the PCs rocket into advancement, surpassing threats like standard humanoids. Before you know it they're throwing around fireballs and fighting trolls, and laughing at Orcs.

Additionally, starting at 1st level, and getting to the "Wow, we got 2nd level spells and stuff!" is really great to see. The first level feel of 'we're not as effective' shouldn't be sacrificed just so you don't kill them when an orc sneezes.

 

[Spinachcat]

In my OD&D games, I use CON as your base HP and then you roll you HD each level including first plus any CON bonus. This allows me me meaty 1st level characters. Also, I make natural healing equal to Level + Con bonus (min 1) per day because OD&D healing is more rare than in D20.

Tougher characters means less resting / less retreat and that works for some people. It changes the tone of the game.

Also, saying 4e = tougher PCs is very wobbly until we see the stats for what kind of monster party would be an encounter for 1st level PCs. If the monsters have been scaled up in either number of monsters or their own abilities, then 1st level is fragile even if they have 20+ HP.

 

[Rechan]

and given the ease at which characters can be raised from the dead

Care to explain this one?

I haven't heard anything that makes it easier.

 

[CleverNickName]

Care to explain this one?

I haven't heard anything that makes it easier.

What I was trying to say was, character death is not that big of a deal in D&D. If a character dies, he gets dragged back to town and resurrected for a fee...usually a donation to the temple, or by agreeing to a quest or something. The DM can control how difficult this is through the story or through restricting the party's resources, but in the end, it is usually more of a temporary inconvenience than a game-ender.

Unless these spells don't exist in your game, that is. If you play a game where characters who die will stay dead, and no magic is powerful enough to restore life to the deceased (such as in the Harry Potter universe), then you will need tougher characters. But in the standard D&D campaign, resurrection is unusual but not uncommon.

That's all I was trying to say. Now, this humble opinion of mine is based in the 3.5E rules, and like you said, we haven't heard anything about resurrection in 4E. Since Fort saves got rebuilt and ability damage got removed, I'm curious to see what permanent damage will be inflicted upon characters who meet the Reaper. (My guess would be "none whatsoever." But that is just a guess.)

 

[DM_Blake]

You my friend were made for Warhammer.

I've played and DMed WFRP.

I love the gritty feel. I dudn't love the class progression. Felt wierd and klugy.

The favorite system I described was a D&D adaptation that evolved from WFRP. It even included turning every weapon into a d6 damage (dagger = d6-3, greatsword = d6+3, everything else fell in between) that allowed crits by simply rolling another d6 if the first one turned up a natural 6, rolling again and again as long as you kept rolling 6, and adding them all up for total damage.

1 hit out of every 6 was a crit, 1 out of 36 was a really bad crit, one out of 216 was a very deadly crit, etc.

Now I'm missing that system even more...

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In my OD&D games, I use CON as your base HP and then you roll you HD each level including first plus any CON bonus. This allows me me meaty 1st level characters. Also, I make natural healing equal to Level + Con bonus (min 1) per day because OD&D healing is more rare than in D20.

Do you do this for NPCs and humanoids as well, or just for PCs?

 

[mmadsen]

sometiems there is no plot other then "Stop Lord Black" or "Free Princess Purelight" or "kick in the door and take stuff" those realyl don't require characters with plot protection. Don't kill them all and the plot is protected.

That was my point. Hit points are that plot protection. If the characters keep getting in serious fights, but they don't die, then fate is shining down on them -- which D&D implements via lots of hit points.

If everyone has lots of hit points, then everyone is oddly difficult to injure, which fits neither reality nor fiction. Many warriors, even tough veterans, go down when stabbed once or twice, whether we're talking about reality or fiction. Some don't, but that's unusual, not something we expect of everyone.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I'm glad that instance worked out for you, but you yourself pointed out that they were "really lucky." The problem with being "really lucky" is that it only happens when, y'know, you're really lucky. What about the other 90% of the time?

There are ways around the baby dungeon room, by all means. Nonlethal traps, "fetch" quests, story XP, "outrider" encounters, etc. ... but why come up with a ton of workarounds when you can just make starter characters less fragile and be done with it?

-The Gneech

Without much luck I suppose the one or two guys who would have run away at the end would meet some new brave souls at the local tavern and talk them into joining them on their heroic adventures. There is a point where beefing up "strater characters" too much makes them no longer feel like starter charcters. some folks like playing frodo, sam, merry and pippin.