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Yugoloths: Do They Have an Identity Beyond the Blood War?

I am sure when the publish Monodrone #2349856's Guide to the Multiverse in 2020, #....56 will tell us that Mordenkainen is just a mortal, and, as such, has a limited understanding of the Blood War, in particular being distracted by all that gaudy devil and demon stuff. Also, the modrons created the devils to bring order to the demons (and in fact, Asmodeus is really just a steroided up Nonaton). Seriously, who is more trustworthy than Monodrone #2349856?
 

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jgsugden

Legend
The game works well with some space for DMs to carve out a story. There are a lot of potential stories to write about these folks.
 

Speaking as the person who created Pathfinder's proteans, they're serpents for two reasons. Firstly because it's a nod to the slaadi that were closed content and I couldn't use, but in the Egyptian Ogdoad of Hermopolis creation myth, the primordial chaos of creation was inhabited and shaped by male froglike and female serpentine gods, and if the slaadi are froglike... On top of that the serpentine motif worked in other ways as well, what with various mythologies having a serpent or dragon ruling over primordial chaotic waters. So you've got the basic notion of proteans there as primal sea serpents in an infinite, ever-changing, semi-literal ocean of formless chaos, and it went wild from that point and you end up with the choruses without number singing in the infinite deep of the Maelstrom.

That is pretty neat. Thank you for the insight!
 

The game works well with some space for DMs to carve out a story. There are a lot of potential stories to write about these folks.
I like having some room to work with. But I do like to know a monster's baseline motivations. If I have to invent that, I might as well be inventing my own type of monster.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
I like having some room to work with. But I do like to know a monster's baseline motivations. If I have to invent that, I might as well be inventing my own type of monster.

There's a huge difference in providing lots of -potential- backstory, motivations, and hooks from intentionally unreliable in-game sources of information on the topic, versus just having a vacuous absence of that information and claiming it's an inspiration for GMs. The former is what I personally aim for.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Ultroloth.jpg

"I, Vizer Ibis Couture, et Januz, et Soulitairez, et Karnor Khaine, Et Alia...most certainly have an identity beyond the Blood War. I mean who would be so condescending to say all humans have the same purpose, or all the beings of a certain nation?" Well, except angelics. Narrowminded as..jerks.

"First consider my identity as a family figure. I mean, I make a great husband, or wife. Very responsible. We may not have children of our own, but I've raised them before. Several turned out to be fantastic mercenaries or pawns for long term projects." ...after a few fleshwarping experiments...

"And speaking of long term projects, I am a great organizer and planner. I can commit, and isn't that what's needed in today's fast paced cosmos?" "Why just the other day, I looked in on one of my previous foes that I had turned into a guardian daemon. To be totally honest here, I was not only proud of myself for the idea, but very proud of them. You should have seen the bodies and bones strewn about the chamber. Granted their mental state after so many eons was a little less than desirable, but hey, I like to accentuate the positive in my employees."

[Ibis smiles warmly]

"Oh and lets not forget, I am very financially responsible. Very..." [coughs slightly, changes subject]

"I also have hobbies. I like sculpting, painting (landscapes mostly) and you should see my library" [changes subject again]

"The bottom line here is we are all individuals, regardless of the side of the alignment fence we find ourselves on. Over the years we develop many identities or faces, and all of those join together to become who we really are. Why I remember how the quaint humans on this one realm came up with all kinds of cool nicknames for me. I am so fond of them that I use some of them to this day. I just wish their civilization still existed so I could ask what some of them meant, I mean the ones they yelled were a little hard to hear over the din of the threshing machines...but I digress."

"So feel free to search me out, I will gladly show you some of my identities, or perhaps through "experimentation" we could discover some of yours?"

-Vizer Ibis Couture
 
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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
This is one of the (many) cases where I can't really see the difference between NE and CE. What do bugbears, gnolls, ogres etc do? They ruthlessly pursue their own self-interest and power regardless of rules or social convention.

Maybe I overstated the mezzodaemon's dislike for rules in my paraphrase of the passage from D3, given that the original statement was made about the "strict" rules of devils, to whom the mezzodaemons are not otherwise averse. It is said daemons will enter into compacts with other evil creatures as long as the arrangement is beneficial to themselves. To make a distinction between that and the CE behavior expected from demons and the like, I'd say that while NE creatures will freely accept such compacts, CE creatures will only accept them under threat of coercive force. Otherwise, CE creatures will not submit to any such entanglements on the principal that they limit the power of the individual in favor of the group as a whole.

Upon reviewing D3, daemons don't appear to have been used as guards or for any practical purpose whatsoever in that module. The only place I could find them in the module is on the random encounter table for the city of Erelhei-Cinlu, where they appear to be visitors. They seem to have been put there for no other reason than to reinforce the cosmopolitan character of the city, but a strained reading could tie their presence to the conflict between the city's leading houses. The houses loyal to Lolth may have a stronger connection to demons than those who have converted to the worship of the Elder Elemental God. I say this because one of the former houses (Despana) has among its magic possessions a demon staff while one of the latter houses (Tormtor) has a scroll of protection from demons. So it could be that certain daemons have been enlisted on behalf of the latter houses to counter any demonic aid that may be available to the former. It's also likely, however, that Gygax was looking for a location to place the newly created monsters and found the city's random encounter matrix suitable for the purpose.
 
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I think it is easiest to think of the L-C idea for fiends as follows:

Lawful creatures value respectability over fame/infamy--a devil won't do something that makes the 9 Hells look undependable even if the action would benefit the devil
Chaotic creatures value infamy over respectability--a demon doesn't care if anything it does makes the Abyss "look bad", as long as the demon gets to cause pain and cause fear of him/her/it to grow
Neutral creatures don't particularly value respectability over infamy or vice versa--a yugoloth wants to be respectable enough to be hired as a mercenary, but not so respectable that no one will offer it a bribe.
 

pemerton

Legend
Upon reviewing D3, daemons don't appear to have been used as guards or for any practical purpose whatsoever in that module. The only place I could find them in the module is on the random encounter table for the city of Erelhei-Cinlu, where they appear to be visitors. They seem to have been put there for no other reason than to reinforce the cosmopolitan character of the city, but a strained reading could tie their presence to the conflict between the city's leading houses. The houses loyal to Lolth may have a stronger connection to demons than those who have converted to the worship of the Elder Elemental God. I say this because one of the former houses (Despana) has among its magic possessions a demon staff while one of the latter houses (Tormtor) has a scroll of protection from demons. So it could be that certain daemons have been enlisted on behalf of the latter houses to counter any demonic aid that may be available to the former. It's also likely, however, that Gygax was looking for a location to place the newly created monsters and found the city's random encounter matrix suitable for the purpose.
I think that another possibility (which was suggested to me by the details you've gone and dug out) is that Gygax wanted to place some creatures that might trigger some players to attempt anti-demon magic, but which are not technically demons. It's another opportunity for "skilled play".

Maybe I overstated the mezzodaemon's dislike for rules in my paraphrase of the passage from D3, given that the original statement was made about the "strict" rules of devils, to whom the mezzodaemons are not otherwise averse. It is said daemons will enter into compacts with other evil creatures as long as the arrangement is beneficial to themselves. To make a distinction between that and the CE behavior expected from demons and the like, I'd say that while NE creatures will freely accept such compacts, CE creatures will only accept them under threat of coercive force. Otherwise, CE creatures will not submit to any such entanglements on the principal that they limit the power of the individual in favor of the group as a whole.
I can follow your reasoning, but personally I can't really get on board with it. Ogres are pretty much paradigms of CE, for instance, but they cheerfully work with (LE) orcs.

The PHB and DMG tell us that

The major precepts of [CE} are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims.

The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order tends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.​

There is nothing here that precludes entering into a compact if it promotes the wellbeing of the CE creature. Of course it will betray the compact if that suits it, but then so will a NE creature, I think:

The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world.

[N]eutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals hove great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meont to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.​

Given that a neutral evil being acts "without concern for anything" but gaining power and maintaining dominance, and will use "whatever means are expedient", I think a NE being likewise will betray a compact if that is to its benefit.

I also find the difference between "the powerful gain[ing] and maintain[ing] their dominance" (NE) and "bring[ing] themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims" (CE) fairly hard to make out.
 
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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I think that another possibility (which was suggested to me by the details you've gone and dug out) is that Gygax wanted to place some creatures that might trigger some players to attempt anti-demon magic, but which are not technically demons. It's another opportunity for "skilled play".

Yes, it's quite likely the daemon is one of Gygax's "gotcha" monsters. The name mezzodaemon itself somewhat implies this is the case if a pseudo-latin etymology of "half-demon" in the sense of "sort of, but not quite, a demon" is assumed. It also works for filling in the alignment wheel between LE and CE, in the sense of "half-demon/half-devil". The etymology of nycadaemon is more obscure, but I think it's probably something like "night-demon".

I can follow your reasoning, but personally I can't really get on board with it. Ogres are pretty much paradigms of CE, for instance, but they cheerfully work with (LE) orcs.

They cheerfully "bully and harass" orcs (into working for them?), according to the Humanoid Racial Preference Table in Gygax's DMG, which doesn't sound very cheerful for the orcs and supports the idea that CE social dynamics are characterized by control and coercion rather than mutual cooperation. A CE ogre is perfectly happy to work "with" orcs it has cowed into submission, similar to how a CE orc chief, or some other dark lord, maintains his power through fear and violence. On the other hand, a concerted effort by a group of orcs (perhaps controlled by a more powerful and intelligent CE dark lord) could sufficiently cow an ogre to gain its assistance.

Of course, there's more to relations between ogres and orcs than alignment, and ogres are not demons. I'd expect ogres to tend toward CE, but to find some that are more CN and some that are more NE, for example.

The PHB and DMG tell us that

The major precepts of [CE} are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims.

The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order tends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.​

There is nothing here that precludes entering into a compact if it promotes the wellbeing of the CE creature.

I see the compact as inhibiting the CE creature's ability to act with randomness, caprice, and whim. Such limitations are undesirable.

Of course it will betray the compact if that suits it, but then so will a NE creature, I think:

The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world.

[N]eutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals hove great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meont to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.​

Given that a neutral evil being acts "without concern for anything" but gaining power and maintaining dominance, and will use "whatever means are expedient", I think a NE being likewise will betray a compact if that is to its benefit.

I also find the difference between "the powerful gain[ing] and maintain[ing] their dominance" (NE) and "bring[ing] themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims" (CE) fairly hard to make out.

The difference is while a NE creature will use "whatever means are expedient", including working within a group when it's advantageous, a CE creature seeks benefit for itself by exercising its "individual caprice" and whim, rather than derive benefit as a member of a group that more directly benefits from the creature's actions. Which is to say that CE and LE are different (and somewhat exclusive) approaches to expediency, but NE partakes of both. At least, that's how I think of it.
 

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