Zero to Hero!

[Victim]

I would claim it's pretty hard to manage the "just got off the farm" feeling of a PC party now days. It can be done (use martial power sources only is a good start), but it's tricky.

Nothing said fresh off the farm like killing 2 enemies (and not especially weak enemies, just the normal enemies for that level) a blow with Cleave and moping up the crowd of foes instantly subdued by Color Spray.

 

[Pentius]

I would claim it's pretty hard to manage the "just got off the farm" feeling of a PC party now days. It can be done (use martial power sources only is a good start), but it's tricky.

I think the trickiest part is making sure that everyone is on board with the concept. Once they are, I find that it's all in the descriptions and encounter building. The players who can't see themselves making a level 1 wizard's stuff sound sufficiently low power will(hopefully) have the sense to make something else.

Really, I've tried the lowbie farm hand type stuff before, and the real problem that comes up isn't mechanical interactions or difficulty describing it, it's that one player who isn't really on board and insists on playing a ninja/assassin.

 

[Aenghus]

4e deliberately slowed down the pace of combat compared to previous editions by reducing the relative rate of dealing and receiving damage, and removing Save or Die spells. They reduced swinginess by reducing the effect of criticals. These design choices risk grind when the players are learning the game or don't use teamwork or have poorly chosen powers.

As a consequence, combat is more predictable and encounters are easier to design. When the PCs are outclassed, its possible for them to realise this and retreat/ surrender/ change tactics, where in previous editions they would probably learn they were outclassed by incurring casualties. The threat of suffering one shot kills in previous editions distorted combat tactics a lot, making initiative king and a lot of anticlimactic combats that were over almost before they were started.

How dangerous low level 4e combat is depends on how tough the DM wants it to be. 4e combats have more monsters in them than 3e ones, and if all the monsters focus on one PC its very bad news for them (normally I don't do this, it's for special occasions)

 

[Dragon Sin-Camealot]

I created my own campaign with good success. Played only once so far so maybe I'll do it again.

Declaring someone a hero or zero is close to hearsay/personal preference. Showing me that crown jewel you got from the dragon is concrete proof.

I'm not too certain what you 'want' out of the game and/or this thread. Since you show interest in it expect to pleased and/or dissapointed at certain aspects.

I don't know you entirely so I can't completely predict how you'll react to any adventure.

 

[S'mon]

This isn't entirely coherent. If you fight a crowd of farmers, for example, they might be a single entity in combat: "Swarm of Farmers." Or they might be 6 minions, two brutes, and a leader. They could be just a pile of minions, but that's not going to be a very fun or interesting bit of gaming and is a poor use of the concept "minion" in 4e.

I'm not explaining myself well...... Saying "most farmers are level 1 minions" is taking the abstractions of hit points and the combat system and trying to give them "real world" analogs. That was a poor idea even in 3e, which actually had some simulationist trappings, but it's worse in 4e.

It actually says in the 4e DMG that most people are level 1 minions are similar, though.

 

[Dumnbunny]

It's a lot more difficult to die in 4th edition when compared to other editions because when the the HP runs out you aren't dead. You have to get to negative your bloodied value or fail three death saves in order to die. No other edition presented this kind of benefit. Back in older editions you had to get to -10 and you were dead.

I don't know why people keep forgetting this part: "Death: When you take damage that reduces your current hit points to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, your character dies."

I've had this happen to me a few times. For example, at the start of my current campaign, my character went from wounded but standing to dead in one attack. Tonight we hit level 5, just in time for someone else to lose a character to this rule.

Give the number of character deaths and TPKs I've experienced, I can't say that I think it's all that difficult to die in 4e.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I don't know why people keep forgetting this part: "Death: When you take damage that reduces your current hit points to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, your character dies."

I've had this happen to me a few times. For example, at the start of my current campaign, my character went from wounded but standing to dead in one attack. Tonight we hit level 5, just in time for someone else to lose a character to this rule.

Give the number of character deaths and TPKs I've experienced, I can't say that I think it's all that difficult to die in 4e.

Actually it is difficult to die on 4th edition. In previous editions, let's say you were at -7 hp and someone hit you with a Cure Light Wounds for say 5 points. Well instead of going from zero to five and conscious, you just go to -2. Let's not forget that we also have second wind.

I'm not saying character deaths don't happen because I know they do, but when you compare it to previous editions, you have a lot more hoops to jump through in order to die as well as a lot more safety nets.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm not saying character deaths don't happen because I know they do, but when you compare it to previous editions, you have a lot more hoops to jump through in order to die as well as a lot more safety nets.

And IME this happens quite a bit in the same way bare knuckle boxers don't hit as hard for fear of breaking their hands.

For a "zero", give each character one hybrid class. With no daily power, so they get 1 at-will and 1 encounter. No feats (aside from the human bonus feat). 1/2 or 1/4 the starting gold. When they hit level 1, they get the rest of the class and the level 1 feat.

I'd like to finesse that - I've been thinking along similar lines. Make minions do double damage to level 0 PCs - that way minions drop the PCs in two shots (normally) rather than four. Makes them far more threatening. Also you get two at wills - but both are recharge on a 3+ rather than truly at will (unless they are basic attacks). Thieves get a recharge on their tricks, e-Fighters and e-Rangers get one stance rather than two (and all lose their weapon talents other than the stat change).

 

[Pentius]

And IME this happens quite a bit in the same way bare knuckle boxers don't hit as hard for fear of breaking their hands.

This matches my experience. I've actually had more character deaths since I went to 4e than in the rest of my gaming...time(?) combined. In half as many years, no less.

What I think it boils down to isn't precisely that it's harder to die in 4e, but rather that it's harder to die accidentally. That is, if your DM wants to run a campaign where character death is a real threat, he can do it. He can do it easily, and without going beyond encounter building guidelines. Conversely, if your DM wants you to be challenged, but still generally survive, that's a lot easier to do than in previous editions. IME, most DMs go for the latter. In previous editions, if your Dm tried to set it up so the party didn't die, you either fought rats(or some other lame enemy), or you fought low-HD humanoids and prayed they never got a lucky shot in(and sometimes, the rats got a lucky shot in, too).

 

[Oldtimer]

Actually it is difficult to die on 4th edition. In previous editions, let's say you were at -7 hp and someone hit you with a Cure Light Wounds for say 5 points. Well instead of going from zero to five and conscious, you just go to -2.

I see that as a bug, not feature. The cleric used one of his precious miracles... and you're still down and out. What's the thing with that?

I'm not saying character deaths don't happen because I know they do, but when you compare it to previous editions, you have a lot more hoops to jump through in order to die as well as a lot more safety nets.

And that's a good thing in my book. Why do we want the characters to die? Defeated, captured, disgraced, all good for the story. Dead? Not so much.