RPGs, new games and originality

Aldarc

Legend
What if you don't like narrative games, Story Now, etc? What's out there outside of D&D for that? The basic design philosophy for those games is do fundamentally different that, coming from D&D, it may very well be too big a shock to even feel like the same hobby to a long-time D&D player. I know I've bounced off those kinds of games every time I've encountered them.
As it turns out? A lot more than there are narrative games or anything approaching story now.

Traveller. RuneQuest. HeroQuest. Fantasy AGE. Forbidden Lands. Swords of the Serpentine. The One Ring 1e/2e. Cypher System. Savage Worlds. Warhammer Fantasy RP/Zweihänder. 2d20 Conan. Tiny Dungeon. Ryuutama. Der Schwarze Auge.

There are a lot of non-story games outside of D&D and OSR clones/hacks.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
As it turns out? A lot more than there are narrative games or anything approaching story now.

Traveller. RuneQuest. HeroQuest. Fantasy AGE. Forbidden Lands. Swords of the Serpentine. The One Ring 1e/2e. Cypher System. Savage Worlds. Warhammer Fantasy RP/Zweihänder. 2d20 Conan. Tiny Dungeon. Ryuutama. Der Schwarze Auge.

There are a lot of non-story games outside of D&D and OSR clones/hacks.
Yeah, I know. I just see narrative games trotted out whenever anyone suggests moving beyond D&D, and for some/many it's a bridge too far. It certainly has been for me ime.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
. . . It's just that it felt to me that the OGL and the 3rd party products were kind of a promise of things being done a different way, and my realization is that its not.
I'm sorry, that's a harsh realization. Especially after putting lots of hard-earned (?) dollars into it.

I guess I should tell you now, before it's too late; OneD&D isn't going to be original, either.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Yeah, I know. I just see narrative games trotted out whenever anyone suggests moving beyond D&D, and for some/many it's a bridge too far. It certainly has been for me ime.
I see OSR or Pathfinder 2 suggested, and those aren't a far enough bridge for other people. Not everyone will be turned-off by story games. Some will be, and they will find their ways to the other traditional games out there, much as they already have. There's no need to be concerned that people are suggesting story games to other people who aren't you.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I see OSR or Pathfinder 2 suggested, and those aren't a far enough bridge for other people. Not everyone will be turned-off by story games. Some will be, and they will find their ways to the other traditional games out there, much as they already have. There's no need to be concerned that people are suggesting story games to other people who aren't you.
Thanks for the concern. I suspect I'm not the only person who's interested in games that aren't D&D, but not on board with the narrative/storygame movement.
 




I've been playing D&D since about 2000 with 3rd edition. I've only recently (2019) jumped into other RPGs (and I jumped pretty hard). I bought dozens of other RPGs and dozens of zines. I've delved hard in the OSR scene and the following NuSR movement. I've played about three to four new games each year but my library is growing pretty quick.

My first emotion was close to ecstasy. There seemed to be an endless amount of content online. So many games, so many settings. . .

The scene is less creative and innovative than I thought. Most of what I see are clones of games we already have and I just can't be excited for that. It's already something that plagues the industry I work in (video games) and for a while TTRPGs were my creative escape.
There's a trade-off here, which is fairly inescapable in commercial popular culture. Most people don't want lots of originality. They don't want something exactly the same as last month's product, because that would be dull, but they also don't want to overturn all their ideas and deal with something totally unfamiliar.

Anyone who offers something highly original is likely to find that it only appeals to a small part of the market. If you're a small publisher relying on each product's sales to keep you afloat while you work on the next one, attempting radical innovation will kill you.

So if you want to play something that isn't mainstream, you have a variety of options, but they're all more work than buying and running third-party D&D-style adventures:
  • If one of the traditional niche markets, like superhero gaming, Call of Cthulhu, or Harn, appeals to you, join that. You'll get some mutual support from other members of the niche, but you'll still have to create a lot of your own adventure material.
  • You can pick a game system that seems appropriate and create your own setting that works the way you want. This is what I usually do, running GURPS in semi-historical settings. It is quite a bit of work, but you can do the work as you go along, rather than having to write the whole world before you start. You need players that will appreciate the setting, and don't just want to kill monsters and take their stuff.
  • An odder approach is to take a published setting and run it with a different game system that brings a different mindset to the game. I'm currently playing through the Pathfinder 1e version of the Kingmaker Adventure Path, under GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. The characters are a bit more rationalist than seems to be expected, and keep spotting flaws in the logistics, which make it all seem more complicated.
  • If nothing published pleases you, start creating your own setting and system. This is where radical innovation happens, but it's not a good basis for starting a publishing company.
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
Alright, so this is not a rant. It's something that'd been nagging in the back of my mind for several months now and I've wanted to exchange with someone to kind of understand my own thoughts and feelings about the matter.

I've been playing D&D since about 2000 with 3rd edition. I've only recently (2019) jumped into other RPGs (and I jumped pretty hard). I bought dozens of other RPGs and dozens of zines. I've delved hard in the OSR scene and the following NuSR movement. I've played about three to four new games each year but my library is growing pretty quick.

My first emotion was close to ecstasy. There seemed to be an endless amount of content online. So many games, so many settings. So many original ideas when you look at all these colorful colors and premises. And I did find some gems. Games and zines that are really different; they play different, they feel different and they lead to different experiences. Different dice mechanics, progression mechanics, narrative systems, etc.

However, there's one but.

Now that I've done a solid survey of the land, my emotion is slowly shifting to disappointment at the lack of originality in so many games.

5E
I love 5E. It's a good game, I played an uncountable number of hours of it. However, I was a bit turned off by the sheer quantity of 5E books that came out on Kickstarter every week. At first I dove in some of them, but very quickly it felt to me that except a new coat of finish, it was just more of the same thing. Most books often promised a different genre or setting (horror, grim fantasy, steampunk) with some gorgeous art, but looking at samples it just felt unimaginative. Which statblock can I copy paste, put a different art and tweak a number or two. Very rarely did I see some really innovative ideas. Things might have changed, I jump off the Kickstarter wagon about two years ago, but that's how I felt at the time.

The current situation with the OGL and the many companies jumping in to make clones of 5E is no different to me. I already bought these books some eight years ago. For me, the differences presented are not big enough for many of these projects to be considered a new game.

OSR
OSR had crazy promise, and I did find so many interesting things. But I cannot understate how many people release games patting themselves in the back, and when I look at the content, they've basically copy pasted the same framework that most of these games use, sometimes changing semantic, of having a few numbers being lower, or having three more things in the equipment list. This is not a new game, this is barely even a supplement at this point.

I'm not going to name anything, but I bought a small zine recently. And it basically had renamed Hit Points to Vitality, it lowered a few numbers because it was supposed to be grim and it renamed the basic B/X classes to things that were much darker in tone. This is not creativity to me.

I realized that even though there were a lot of interesting elements in the scene, it was basically a whole demographics that just wanted to keep playing the game they played 43 years ago; and the scene keeps on reinventing the same game over and over with slight changes.

I'm going to keep on looking at the OSR scene because there's some great stuff. But, my perspective of it changed.

NuSR
For those unaware, NuSR is an appellation that designates a movement of game design originated in the OSR but moved away from it. NuSR games tend to adhere to the same core principles that OSR games do, but they try to modernize their framework, mechanics and to try new things. Examples are: Cairn, Into the Odd, Electric Bastionlands, etc.

So, logically after my slight fall with the OSR scene, I discovered the NuSR scene and I thought "Ah, that's where all the innovation went." However, I quickly realized that even though, once again, there is a good deal of innovation happening there; there is also so much products that are just a rehashing of the same elements, barely changed except that basing themselves off B/X they base themselves off two or three very popular frameworks (see examples above).

Conclusion
I don't want to look overly negative. But this voyage has been one of excitement as much as it has been one of disappointment. The scene is less creative and innovative than I thought. Most of what I see are clones of games we already have and I just can't be excited for that. It's already something that plagues the industry I work in (video games) and for a while TTRPGs were my creative escape.

Anyone else feeling like this? Or feeling like I'm missing something? Did you felt the same way but changed your perspective?
To me it feels like you are really in the D&D zone. Nothing wrong with that, though it might be why everything feels like a "clone". Though at the same time here is me:

pencil and paper.png


Pencil and paper, that pencil is ancient and while most I use are new I am trying out the eraser cap, the clipboard is really ancient though. Who thought through so many years it would stick around? I think I snagged it from my Dad back in the 70's. That is a new copy of spots because I gave away my other one; it is like a clone, except at the same time totally different. I have played it with Classic Traveller, and having picked up the Mongoose 2 books, I am confident it can be played with that also.

I don't know, I feel ambivalent about things for a while, until I find something else I want to do. Right now I am writing a follow up to spots, and andromeda dragons. I have spoken to someone about writing some rules, which will be cool, either way, finishing that project. I'd like to be playing more really, I should do that too. I think also that affects me is that I play the setting more than the rules. It would be neat to hit some cons with stuff too, and play some games.
 

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