Proposal: Allowing PH2 (in parts)

[garyh]

Well, I am curious what you guys think of Weapon/Implement Expertise. I'm not sure it's a huge problem ... I'd like it, but there are a lot of other feats I'd prefer to take first. Some people on the internet claim it was created to bring epic-tier play into balance, but I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.

Thoughts?

Doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. Good feat, sure. But not a gamebreaker. And like Storm of Blades, we should count ourselves lucky if we have to worry about how attractive the +2 is at level 15.

The thing that cheeses me off about the PHB2: Bards get to cast one free ritual per day.

Do wizards? Oh, no!

Why should they? I mean, rituals may be a wizard's raisin detriment, but, you know, these little guitar-playin' kum-ba-yah singin' hippies get MORE rituals to cast than wizard, and they can do it once a day FOR FREE.

Makes complete sense.

AAAAAAARGH!

But you have to sing kum-ba-yah for the free ritual to be free. Is it worth it? Is it really?

 

[taran]

The only rituals Bards can cast for free are the rituals that only Bards are allowed to use, which were balanced with free casting in mind.

And yeah, Weapon Expertise is basically Wizards saying "Oops, 1/2 level attack bonuses scale just a tiny bit too slowly". One local group I'm familiar with gives everyone a free Weapon or Implement Expertise feat for free at first level. In 2 or 3 years when L4E characters start hitting Paragon tier, we may want to look at a similar measure.

 

[Atanatotatos]

About implement/weapon expertise, take a look at an ancient red dragon's defenses and tell me if the average (not fighter/kensai/demigod) lvl 30 character can reasonably hit them without insane bonuses.
At heroic level, it's good for characters that are below average regarding to-hit bonus, but the rest has much more to take before.

I'll make an example with Alexander as I envision him at lvl 3:
+4 strenght
+2 proficiency waraxe
+1/+2 enhancement
+1 lvl
+1 weapon talent
+2 from brash strike (probable at-will of choice most of the time)
+2 from flanking (almost guaranteed with pass forward)
That's +13-14 to hit, without considering bonuses from our leader.
The average AC of a lvl 3 soldier is 18-19 I think; meaning Alex needs a FIVE to hit it in more or less comfortable conditions; why should I choose weapon expertise over plate proficiency or whatever, really, at least for a while?

On the other hand, I like the fact that it makes "bad" race/class combinations more viable, like implement users with a 16 in their main stat. Or warlords, too.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Yeah, I'm tempted to hand out Expertise for free to my RL group too ... I'm a little more hesitant to do that for L4W though, for some reason.

On the topic of rituals, druids also get to cast Animal Messenger for free 1/day. Remember that wizards are still the only class that gets to learn rituals for free as they level up, though. That's pretty cool, especially considering how much it can cost to develop a ritual book.

 

[KenHood]

On the topic of rituals, druids also get to cast Animal Messenger for free 1/day.

What?!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

 

[Atanatotatos]

True. Good rituals cost a lot.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

About implement/weapon expertise, take a look at an ancient red dragon's defenses and tell me if the average (not fighter/kensai/demigod) lvl 30 character can reasonably hit them without insane bonuses.

Yes, I agree that it looks pretty nasty. I think it's harder to judge, though, because every character has piles of utilities and other tricks that can boost attacks or penalize enemy defenses. But still, +3 attack is probably the best feat you'll see in epic.

On the other hand, I like the fact that it makes "bad" race/class combinations more viable, like implement users with a 16 in their main stat. Or warlords, too.

Yes, that's also one big reason I like it. That, and it creates less pressure to be 'optimal' with your stat selection for the same reasons.

I do think that if/when we approve Expertise that we should add a note to it that it can't apply to a single weapon or implement more than once. For example, taking Weapon Expertise (heavy blades) and Weapon Expertise (polearms) would not stack when using a glaive. That might be taken care of by errata by the time we approve it, though.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I do think that if/when we approve Expertise that we should add a note to it that it can't apply to a single weapon or implement more than once. For example, taking Weapon Expertise (heavy blades) and Weapon Expertise (polearms) would not stack when using a glaive. That might be taken care of by errata by the time we approve it, though.

This. Very important.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

What?!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

If it helps, consider your cantrips to be four separate rituals that you, and only you, have access to for free as many times a day as you want. That's better than piddly old Animal Messenger once a day, isn't it?

 

[KenHood]

Nope. Doesn't help.

Especially when I consider that once a day I could have my character cause a cute bunny or sweet little puppy dog to walk up to a random child, and shortly after being cuddled by said child, tell the child that his parents only pretend to love him, while planning to fatten him up and eat him in his sleep.

How much XP do you get for killing childhood innocence?