Undead and Fort saves

K

Kmart Kommando

First Post

• Aug 28, 2006

• #1

In Tome of Battle, there's a Stone Dragon maneuver that deals extra damage, and requires a fort save or be knocked back 1d4 squares and knocked prone.

So, are all undead completely immune to this effect?
By the RAW, you can't even punt a skeletal squirrel with this maneuver?
Is there any FAQ or Errata about this kind of thing?

 

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D

Demoquin

First Post

• Aug 28, 2006

• #2

Pretty sure they would use their CHA modifier instead. Check the MM for Undead traits

 

frankthedm

First Post

• Aug 28, 2006

• #3

Kmart Kommando said:

In Tome of Battle, there's a Stone Dragon maneuver that deals extra damage, and requires a fort save or be knocked back 1d4 squares and knocked prone.

So, are all undead completely immune to this effect?
By the RAW, you can't even punt a skeletal squirrel with this maneuver?
Is there any FAQ or Errata about this kind of thing?

Click to expand...

The manuever has no business being a fort save. Opposed bull rush or opposed trip mechanics should have been used.

 

'o Skoteinos

First Post

• Aug 28, 2006

• #4

If the manouver affects objects (which by the description given, wouldn't seem unreasonable), Undead are affected normally (i.e. must make fort saves or be knocked back).

 

J

javcs

First Post

• Aug 28, 2006

• #5

frankthedm said:

The manuever has no business being a fort save. Opposed bull rush or opposed trip mechanics should have been used.

Click to expand...

There is, unfortunately, precedent for Fort save against being knocked back - the clouting special ability from CArc.

Bull Rush or Trip mechanics makes sense to me, and if they really wanted a save, they should've used Reflex instead of Fort.

 

Question

First Post

• Aug 28, 2006

• #6

Simple just make the undead do a fort save.

 

A

AuraSeer

Prismatic Programmer

• Aug 28, 2006

• #7

Undead are not immune to Fortitude saves that can affect objects.

As long as this feat doesn't specify that it works on "living creatures" or some such, it should work fine. There's nothing conceptually wrong with using a mighty blow to knock down an unattended object, or an animated object, or an undead critter.

 

K

Kmart Kommando

First Post

• Aug 30, 2006

• #8

Actually, it says "creature" as the target.
Another maneuver in the same school does extra damage, and ignores DR and hardness. It says creature or unattanded object.

In Setting Sun school, there are tons of throws, but they all use trip mechanics. There's one that does a bull rush and does damage if you move them, and you don't have to follow if you bounce them more than 5 feet. Dunno offhand what school that one is though.

Heh, weird thing is, Clouting is a Fort save, but has the prerequisite spell of Repulsion, which is a Will save. :\

Actually, when undead have to make Fort saves, such as vs. Disintegrate, they use a 'Con' modifier of 0. (as in, no bonus, no penalty). I'll see if I can find where I saw that..

 

frankthedm

First Post

• Aug 30, 2006

• #9

Kmart Kommando said:

Actually, when undead have to make Fort saves, such as vs. Disintegrate, they use a 'Con' modifier of 0. (as in, no bonus, no penalty). I'll see if I can find where I saw that..

Click to expand...

Yes, they have to make the save vs Disintegrate because Disintegrate also affects objects. Any other fort save they are immune to.

Nonabilities
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0.

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

 

O

Ogrork the Mighty

Explorer

• Aug 30, 2006

• #10

This is just a case of something slipping through the rules. Or, more likely, something that wasn't vetted/playtested properly. No biggie. Just make a Fort save, regardless of what the rules say. It's that or change the mechanic of the special ability, which, IMO, is more work than it's worth.