D&D 4E Min/Maxing in 4e
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You'll need to define that more closely.Kzach said:
If you mean: "4e allows you to make good character building choices and bad character building choices", then I'd say "of course!"
If you mean: "4e requires you to make good character building choices. If you don't, your character will fail often enough to be called annoying", then I'd say it's much less clear.
Besides, just saying the phrase "min/max" gets some people's hackles up. So tell us what you mean without saying "min/max" again.
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plutocracy
Explorer
God yes it favors min maxing! We've gone from having 1 dump stat (usually CHA) to 3. Since stats are determined from the better of 2 and attack rolls are always from your classes 1, much easier to have 3 8s and not care (or 10, 10, 8, whatever). The 3 dump stats vary from class to class but they are there.
Yes, that 12 dex might still provide you a +1 initiative bonus despite being otherwise useless in heavy armor, but that doesn't count, nor does a secondary ability that you can completely ignore by choosing powers that don't use it.
The exceptions are there, but they are small and usually not worth sacrificing any of your 3 (or 2) primary stats for.
In 3ed, having a bunch of 14s was decent in a number of builds. So you have 2 less to hit than someone with an 18, big deal? You have your fighter base attack and +1 to hit with weapon focus, +1 with point blank shot, +5 from magic weapon, etc....
In 4ed Its all about getting extra points in your Attack roll stat, since Defenses and Attack rolls scale evenly. Your primary ability is one of the only ways to do that in 4th ed.
Now, in 4th ed, OMG how useless balanced ability scores are. Can you imagine having 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 8 as starting stats? You really should start with at least an 18 after racial mods in your primary stat or you are a bit gimped IMO.
Yes, that 12 dex might still provide you a +1 initiative bonus despite being otherwise useless in heavy armor, but that doesn't count, nor does a secondary ability that you can completely ignore by choosing powers that don't use it.
The exceptions are there, but they are small and usually not worth sacrificing any of your 3 (or 2) primary stats for.
In 3ed, having a bunch of 14s was decent in a number of builds. So you have 2 less to hit than someone with an 18, big deal? You have your fighter base attack and +1 to hit with weapon focus, +1 with point blank shot, +5 from magic weapon, etc....
In 4ed Its all about getting extra points in your Attack roll stat, since Defenses and Attack rolls scale evenly. Your primary ability is one of the only ways to do that in 4th ed.
Now, in 4th ed, OMG how useless balanced ability scores are. Can you imagine having 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 8 as starting stats? You really should start with at least an 18 after racial mods in your primary stat or you are a bit gimped IMO.
Nah, this wasn't meant to be an exercise in nit-picking his character. I personally have no real problem with him having it like that, I was just curious to see what other people thought about the issue of min/maxing in 4e.Moon-Lancer said:
Ok, yeah, I guess I should've used the term optimised. To me, min/maxing is optimising.Moon-Lancer said:
For example, every class/build has one attack stat and two buff stats. Generally speaking, I would maximise the attack stat and choose on of the buff stats to get high and only choose powers that were buffed by that stat.
So for the rogue, for instance, if I was making an artful dodger, I'd make Dex very high and Charisma as high as I could and pretty much forget about the rest of the stats. I'd then only choose powers that were buffed by Charisma.
To me, that's min/maxing, aka optimising. And to me, I think 4e encourages that sort of thinking. Especially if you read the build options.
Don't kid yourself here. When WotC decided that simplicity and accessability are all-important goals--that thoroughness and complexity are in fact bad things--then we're going to wind up with a game that has a lot of vague, sloppy, eminently exploitable rules because they're not going to have the appropriate caveats. Powers are going to work against things that they really shouldn't because inserting the proper exceptions makes the rule too complex.Agamon said:
4e certainly encourages you to min/max the heck out of your ability scores. Telling somebody that they can use one of two ability scores as their defense amounts to telling them they should flush the other, at least in the case of INT, WIS, and CHA, which do little else besides adding into defenses.
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But you can use both if you like, and it usually works out. Chances are they attack different defenses, and thanks to the point buy/ array rules, odds are you'll either have 18 main stat + whatever, or 16 in two main stats + whatever. So you're trading +1 attack and damage for diversity of options and targetable defenses.Nifft said:
What's your working definition of min-maxing? Because exploitability would seem to have everything to do with min-maxing according the definition commonly used in this neck of the woods.Cadfan said:
By way of example, we have a ranger build in another thread in this forum that employs min-maxing to leverage the Blade Cascade daily ability, which is highly exploitable due to its design--you get to keep rolling attacks until you miss. I don't think it's very hyperbolic at all to say that's a lax design, and that the only reason not to cap the number of attacks you can milk it for is that whole "thoroughness and complexity is bad" mentality.
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You have, subsequent to my post, edited to add an on point paragraph that discusses min maxing and ability scores. I have no particular argument with the points you make in your second paragraph, except to note that most classes get at least some use out of three ability scores, many get use out of four, and the default system for character design doesn't let you drop any score beneath and eight, and no more than one score beneath a 10. So we won't be seeing any borderline nonsentient fighters any time soon.Felon said:
The dichotomy between complex rules with few holes (but much to learn or memorize) and general rules with more holes (but ease of application and memorization) has nothing to do with min maxing your ability scores. Or for that matter, with min maxing anything at all, as evidenced by the fact that there is nothing involved in that topic to minimize, and nothing in that topic to maximize.
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