Acrobatics

I really need to figure out how to "say yes" when one of my players is trying to use acrobatics. The skill description is extremely vague.

For instance it says you can somersault over an opponent using acrobatics. What should be the DC for this? Should it provoke an opportunity attack when you attempt it? If the opportunity attack hits, should the DC be increased? Should the enemy be allowed to use the opportunity attack to stop the maneuver? What happens to the DC then? Should the rogue get artful dodger bonus against the opportunity attack? Is this maneuver a move action? If the rogue doesn't want to suffer an opportunity attack, could he be allowed to try it as a standard action?

While I want to "say yes", when the rogue wants to use acrobatics to move through an opponent's space or tumble between two opponents and get to the mage in the back, I'm hesitant to "say yes" because it normally requires a specific race and a paragon feat (Underfoot) to be able to move through an opponent's space without provoking an attack, or the use of an encounter power (Tumble) to move between opponents without provoking an attack.

How do I "say yes", when the rogue is trying (with no malintent) to simulate other high level powers and feats using the acrobatics skill?

Previously I had used an opposing check of Acrobatics vs. a strength check when I had non-hostile NPC try and weave his way through a tight corridor of PC's.

The check above was an immediate reaction to block the passage of the NPC.

For your situation, and my future situations, I'd allow an Opportunity attack for the NPC, or a chance to block the PC from going past.

On Opportunity attack, if the NPC hits, does damage, and PC still skirts through.

On a block, ( and I've thought opposing Acrobatics vs. Athletics now makes more sense than Acrobatics vs. Str ) the NPC blocks the move, and the PC ends up in the nearest,closest un-occupied square, he last came through in a Prone position.

If the PC succeeds he gets past and can continue his full movement un-impeded.

Simplist answer: DMG pg 42. Match level to DC, I'd set it at hard since there are powers that accopmlish what your player wants to do for free. Success: Action resolves, Fail: Player provokes OA with -2 to AC but succeeds, fail by 5 or more: Player provokes OA and remains in square (possibly prone as worded in skill section). Hope this helps.

Our 4th level halfling rogue tried this same stunt just a few days ago. We used DC table DMG pg 42, and so the DC was 17. The rogue has a +13 to his acrobatics check. Therefore there is only a very small chance that he's going to fail. He is never going to fail by 5 or more. There isn't much incentive for him to not try this all the time. It's almost like saying that he can move where he likes without provoking any OAs. So, I think for the next time I'd say he has to succeed by more than 5 to avoid the OA.

timmy said:

Our 4th level halfling rogue tried this same stunt just a few days ago. We used DC table DMG pg 42, and so the DC was 17. The rogue has a +13 to his acrobatics check. Therefore there is only a very small chance that he's going to fail. He is never going to fail by 5 or more. There isn't much incentive for him to not try this all the time. It's almost like saying that he can move where he likes without provoking any OAs. So, I think for the next time I'd say he has to succeed by more than 5 to avoid the OA.

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I'm guessing you were between 4th and 6th level, assuming you're using the errata? If a 6th level rogue has a +13 (3/level + 5/stat + 5/skill) it means he's about as good as he can be, and shouldn't have problems with this.

Personally, I wouldn't allow it to avoid OAs at all. That's what powers are for. However, I'd probably use the DC as a threshold, and increase his AC against a resulting OA by an amount based on how well he does on the check. +1 per 2 points of success or +1 per 5 points of success are my first instincts, but I haven't looked at any numbers.

I would rule a no.

There's a lv 2 Utility Power to avoid OA. It makes no sense give him a skill related free power.

IMHO, of course.

avin said:

I would rule a no.

There's a lv 2 Utility Power to avoid OA. It makes no sense give him a skill related free power.

IMHO, of course.

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This. Acrobatics could let you move through an opponent's square, I think (which is really only useful if he's in a 1-square wide corridor), but it would still provoke an OA. I wouldn't do anything as complicated as raise the DC or make him auto-fail if the OA hits, because that's not how OAs in 4E work.

Thanks for the responses so far. It's still a tough call for me, even with an opportunity attack. It's like ignoring the rules for how you are allowed to move. Maybe similar to gaining combat advantage with the Bluff skill, I should limit this sort of movement with Acrobatics to once per encounter?

I would have him roll Acrobatics vs. the monster's Fort or Ref.

Since he's moving and not Shifting, it draws an OA.

Failure = fall prone in the opponent's square. (Unless this means the opponent is Squeezed, in which case, he just falls prone.)

As someone who is a fan of saying yes (and as a player of a rogue who has done this very thing), here are my answers to your questions:

Mengu said:

For instance it says you can somersault over an opponent using acrobatics. What should be the DC for this?

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Using the chart on DMG page 42 (with or without the errata, as you prefer), find the appropriate DC for the level and use that. Possibly base the DC off the level of the enemy rather than that of the PC, if you want a bit more simulationism.

Should it provoke an opportunity attack when you attempt it?

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Certainly, unless the PC is willing to use a power in conjunction with the attempt, such as Tumble or something similar that avoids Opportunity Attacks.

If the opportunity attack hits, should the DC be increased?

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Don't increase the DC - the initial roll determines whether or not they somersault over the enemy successfully. Instead, perhaps have them make a second roll if they get hit - and failing this one means they end up prone.

Should the enemy be allowed to use the opportunity attack to stop the maneuver?

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Not unless they have a basic attack that immobilizes an enemy it hits (or does some similar effect that would stop the PC), or they happen to be a fighter with the class feature that stops people hit by Opportunity Attacks.

What happens to the DC then?

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Leave the initial DC as it is - the scaling DC based on level already is accounting for all the distractions caused by the enemy waving swords at them as they somersault overhead.

Should the rogue get artful dodger bonus against the opportunity
attack?

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Certainly.

Is this maneuver a move action?

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I'd say they can do it as part of a move action - which means they can also do it as part of a power like Tumble in order to avoid the risk of an Opportunity Attack.

If the rogue doesn't want to suffer an opportunity attack, could he be allowed to try it as a standard action?

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I would say no - no more than a player can use a standard action to stride past an enemy without suffering an Opportunity Attack.

How do I "say yes", when the rogue is trying (with no malintent) to simulate other high level powers and feats using the acrobatics skill?

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The main difference is that this method requires a check to succeed and carries a risk of failure - and even then, doesn't overcome certain aspects of those powers. For example, I wouldn't let it negate Opportunity Attacks in any fashion, since you should need those specific powers to do so - thus, it doesn't take the place of Tumble.

Meanwhile, Underfoot lets a halfling automatically move through an enemy without provoking. This somersault stunt would provoke an Opportunity Attack, and is not automatic - if they fail, I'd probably have them land prone next to the enemy. There is still a very clear advantage to having Underfoot.

The trick is that while you should try to say "yes", it is up to you to set the guidelines - how difficult it will be, how much risk their will be, what benefit will be acquired from this action. As long as you thoughtful in doing so, there won't be any abuse of the stunt mechanics going on.

You might also make it something that becomes harder to pull off if the enemy is expecting it. A player might do it once in a fight in the method recommended above - but if they do it again, the enemy is ready for it, and the DC goes up, or the enemy gets a bonus to hit, or something similar. Remember - you want your PCs trying new things, not finding a single useful stunt and defaulting to it at every opportunity.

Anyway, none of the above answers are hard and fast rules - just how I would run it in a game I'm running, and along the lines of how my DM has run it for my own character.

(Who has, several times, used Acrobatics to 'wall-run' past enemies, using Tumble as he does so to avoid any Opportunity Attacks.)

(At which point, now surrounded by enemies and isolated from my allies, the enemies all tend to fall upon me and beat me unconscious.)

(Playing a bold rogue is exciting, but sometimes these things can certainly backfire...)