D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Skirmish for Monks

Forgefly · Oct 12, 2010

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on giving a modified Skirmish to Monks in place of their improved unarmed damage and flurry of blows.

Skirmish is modified to affect all targets instead of working like sneak/critical hits while also being subject to the no armor clause of monks

I saw a couple of advantages.

First, it compliments the monks high move speed and removes the strange conflict between high movement and best reason to stand and fight.

Second, it allows monks to fight unarmed or with monk weapons with less suspension of disbelief (I can hurt you worse with my hip than with this kama) and with similar damage.

Third, this change lessens the rewards for the Augmented Expansion, Improved Natural Attack, Mighty Wallop or other size changing shenanigans.

Fourth, it more clearly defines the monk in the striker role, replacing the 'what is it?' role the monk currently holds (which I think is currently a striker/condition controller)

So far I've only played a monk like this to 3rd level and so I don't have table experience at higher level, but so far I'm really liking the change.

So, what do you think? Are there advantages I missed? Is there a huge flaw I've overlooked?

Ahnehnois · Oct 12, 2010

Halfling monk substitution levels (RotW) do exactly this; flurry for skirmish (you don't get the full scout progression, just a couple of dice and AC bonuses). I had a PC do this once; worked fine. I agree it complements monk movement well.

Skirmish is modified to affect all targets instead of working like sneak/critical hits while also being subject to the no armor clause of monks

Technically skirmish doesn't work that way, and generally this sort of damage doesn't work on creatures immune to crits, but I hate that personally and I doubt it's unbalancing to change it in this case.

Dandu · Oct 12, 2010

Flurry for Skirmish sounds nice. A Monk with Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack will now be able to do some actual damage. If only there were a way to throw Pounce in the mix...

HoboGod · Oct 12, 2010

Technically, a monk can obtain pounce through a level of Lion Totem Barbarian, but it loses its rage abilities to become a monk. Pretty vicious combo, her 10th level character easily does 120+ damage on the first round. If I let my game be broken by insanely strong characters, hers would be breaking it. ^_^

Dandu · Oct 12, 2010

HoboGod said:
Technically, a monk can obtain pounce through a level of Lion Totem Barbarian, but it loses its rage abilities to become a monk. Pretty vicious combo, her 10th level character easily does 120+ damage on the first round. If I let my game be broken by insanely strong characters, hers would be breaking it. ^_^

A 10th level character who is dealing 120+ damage on a full attack isn't really being exceptional or anything. I mean, a CR 10 11 headed hydra is dealing 115 damage every round with its bites.

HoboGod · Oct 13, 2010

I think it's pretty impressive, that same 11-headed hydra wouldn't survive the monk's first turn. In terms of raw damage output, it's rockin' as much as an arcane trickster's Split Ray'd Scorching Ray Sneak Attack.

Dandu · Oct 13, 2010

Would the monk survive the Hydra's?

Oh, btw, since it's Pounce, the Monk has to charge. Hydra gets it even when charging is inhibited by the terrain.

Forgefly · Oct 13, 2010

HoboGod said:
Technically, a monk can obtain pounce through a level of Lion Totem Barbarian, but it loses its rage abilities to become a monk. Pretty vicious combo, her 10th level character easily does 120+ damage on the first round. If I let my game be broken by insanely strong characters, hers would be breaking it. ^_^

Can you break it down for me? In my games 120+(at 10th level)/round is a little too broken.

Dandu · Oct 13, 2010

Let's back calculate.

A Barbarian 1/Monk 9 will have a BAB of +7/+2. He can get three attacks on a pouncing flurry of blows at a BAB of +7/+7/+2

If he has a Strength of 24 (18 to begin with, +2 from levels, +4 item), he will have Strength mod of +7. His attack bonus on a flurry will be +14/+14/+9. He will do damage of 1d10+7 on each attack.

Assuming he has Boots of Speed and Improved Natural Attack, he will attack at +15/+15/+15/+10 for 2d6+7 damage. If we assume that he has a fantastically expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, he'll deal 2d6+8 damage.

So, four attacks at a average of 15 damage each results in... 60 damage.

Hm. I must be missing something here. Perhaps the Monk has natural weapons such as claws and a bite which could add about 1d6+3 + 1d6+3 + 1d4+3 =18.5 damage

Hm. That's 78.5 damage. Still not enough; we're not past the damage range of a core Spirited Charge build. (Which deals about 70-80 damage at level 10)

I'll keep working on this.

Forgefly · Oct 14, 2010

I assumed he'd have the proposed Skirmish instead of flurry and improved unarmed damage.

Here's what I've got
Human
Bbn1 / Monk 9
+7/+2 BAB

Feats
1 Power Attack
H Reckless Offense(XPH) or Reckless Charge (Mini)
3 Acrobatic Skirmish (DR 346)
6 Improved Skirmish (CSco)
9 Improved Acrobatic Skirmish (DR 346)

Assuming the 24 STR (18 +2 level +4 item)
Wielding a +1/masterwork quarterstaff twohanded and max power attack (-7 for +14) on a charging pounce.

+12/+7 1d6+25 +7d6 for an average of 53 per hit.

Is flurry and improved unarmed damage too much a price for skirmish?

Would you think improved unarmed damage (at 20 with INA 4d8) is a fair trade for Skirmish (at 20 with 5d6/+5 AC).

Switching skirmish for flurry doesn't solve the size abuse which was a primary motivator for the proposed change.

D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Skirmish for Monks

Forgefly

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Ahnehnois

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Dandu

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HoboGod

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Dandu

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HoboGod

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Dandu

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Forgefly

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Dandu

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Forgefly

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