D&D 5E Please someone explain to me

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
What was the reasoning behind not giving sorcerers all simple weapons and limiting their spell choices so much? Why restricting them to just a small subset equal to the wizard?

I can only think of reasons they should have:
  • Character conversion, all previous versions of the sorcerer could wield all simple weapons.
  • Spears are iconic for sorcerers. The iconic sorcerer from third edition -and that was still used in L&L- had a spear.
  • Not enough differentiation at first level, at least not in a good way. Except for talking to dragons -and how many dragons will you meet at first level?- there is nothing a first level sorcerer can do a wizard cannot do better while doing even more. Metamagic takes too long to come online, being able to at least use clubs, maces, spears and bows is a meaningful difference.
  • Overall balance, As a sorcerer you feel like a weak wizard, not having enough spell options to dedicate to utility, a seventh level wizard already knows more spells than a 20th level sorcerer will ever know! Wizard's ability to recover slots yields more slots at no cost, plus ritual casting and at later levels they get at-will 1st level slots. And certain metamagic options that could have made a difference like energy substitution just didn't make the cut. being more competent with weapons could have helped.
About the only argument I've heard is because it isn't the sorcerer job. But it doesn't convince me, then what of the warlock and cleric? So, can anybody explain me the reasoning behind it?
 

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Paraxis

Explorer
Why ever use a weapon as a sorcerer when you have attack cantrips?
First few levels fly by in just a few game sessions, you will have metamagic soon enough.

But all that being said, no issue at all with giving sorcerers more weapon proficiencies, all simple sounds fine to me. But if your DM doesn't agree and this is important to you then pick a race that gives some weapon proficiencies like elf.
 

Ragmon

Explorer
Just start at level 3 (the whole party that is).

This way all characters will feel a bit more unique, since level 3 is where class paths come into play (most). Its more fun that way, for us.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
What was the reasoning behind not giving sorcerers all simple weapons and limiting their spell choices so much? Why restricting them to just a small subset equal to the wizard?

The reason for the weapons was likely to help differentiate the Sorcerer from the Warlock (another spontaneous Cha-based caster), and to make it clear that Sorcs are not meant to be "gishy." Sorcerers blow things up with magic, they don't need to stab things in the face.

The reason for the spell list is similar: sorcerers blow things up with magic. They aren't the swiss army knife class (that's Wizards). They are blasters.

I can only think of reasons they should have:
* Character conversion, all previous versions of the sorcerer could wield all simple weapons.
* Spears are iconic for sorcerers. The iconic sorcerer from third edition -and that was still used in L&L- had a spear.

These fall into the category of particular DMs/Situations/Campaigns. It's probably not a big deal to keep a sorc who used a spear, and keep her using a spear, if that's important. It also falls well within what I expect to be in class customization -- proficiency swaps are easy enough. I'd maybe have 'em give up a cantrip, but whatever.

*Not enough differentiation at first level, at least not in a good way. Except for talking to dragons -and how many dragons will you meet at first level?- there is nothing a first level sorcerer can do a wizard cannot do better while doing even more. Metamagic takes too long to come online, being able to at least use clubs, maces, spears and bows is a meaningful difference.

I'ma go ahead and disagree with you there. Draconic Resilience is nice, and leads to a much more survivable spellcaster who isn't terrified of being attacked. Tides of Chaos is also quite lovely. Not to mention the skill difference between a Cha-focused character and an Int-focused character. The ONLY thing that wizards have up on the Sorc at first level is possible flexibility in spell choice from their spellbook.

Overall balance, As a sorcerer you feel like a weak wizard, not having enough spell options to dedicate to utility, a seventh level wizard already knows more spells than a 20th level sorcerer will ever know! Wizard's ability to recover slots yields more slots at no cost, plus ritual casting and at later levels they get at-will 1st level slots. And certain metamagic options that could have made a difference like energy substitution just didn't make the cut. being more competent with weapons could have helped.

Leave the utility to the Wiz, they've got the flexibility in their spell list. What you have is POWER. Your magic gets juice the wizards can't hope to match.

If you're looking for the Sorc to be "exactly like the wizard, only spontaneous and Cha-based, and maybe with some more weapons and spells!" I think you might be looking at it to deliver something it wasn't designed to deliver. Sorcerers in 5e are magic artillery, by and large, they have their own unique identity.

You're free to change it, o'course. Would not be shocked to see such things in the DMG.
 
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Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
I think there's definitely a place for "focused blaster with really cool flavor/schtick." That said, I think forthcoming subclasses will be more interesting than the draconic sorcerer; that's not my preferred archetype.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
"limiting spell choice so much"?

Wizards get access to a relatively vast number of spells (including cantrips): 288 in the PHB.
But otherwise, Sorcerers do OK:

Bard: 121
Cleric: 107
Druid: 111
Sorcerer: 130
Warlock: 75


One reason they have less is metamagic, they get more out of their spells. And, if you want, and the DM goes along, you can get wild magic effects, that can certainly keep things interesting.
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why we need the sorcerer class at all.

Because some people like them? Same exact reason given to the person who always asks why we need the paladin class at all when we could just have fighter/cleric multiclasses. Pretty obvious, if you ask me.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Why ever use a weapon as a sorcerer when you have attack cantrips?

Why should I want to have an attack cantrip in the first place? how do you feel more magical, frying kobolds or doing something more special?

But all that being said, no issue at all with giving sorcerers more weapon proficiencies, all simple sounds fine to me. But if your DM doesn't agree and this is important to you then pick a race that gives some weapon proficiencies like elf.

This works on a DM by DM basis, but how about adventure league? or encounters? Why should I negotiate with every DM one thing that should be by legacy alone?

Just start at level 3 (the whole party that is).

This way all characters will feel a bit more unique, since level 3 is where class paths come into play (most). Its more fun that way, for us.
When I DM I start my games at 8th level, I give an extra feat, tons of gold, no multiclass restrictions, and allow them to buy magic items... Still not helping when I am the one playing.

The reason for the weapons was likely to help differentiate the Sorcerer from the Warlock (another spontaneous Cha-based caster), and to make it clear that Sorcs are not meant to be "gishy." Sorcerers blow things up with magic, they don't need to stab things in the face.
IMO the distinction with warlocks is already clear enough, they are the ones wearing armor and with more hitpoints, and who can keep going for longer. And sorcerers have always been gishy one way or another. It was only in 4e where they became only blasters, and even then they still were gishy, if in a skirmishy way.

The reason for the spell list is similar: sorcerers blow things up with magic. They aren't the swiss army knife class (that's Wizards). They are blasters.
....
I'ma go ahead and disagree with you there. Draconic Resilience is nice, and leads to a much more survivable spellcaster who isn't terrified of being attacked. Tides of Chaos is also quite lovely. Not to mention the skill difference between a Cha-focused character and an Int-focused character. The ONLY thing that wizards have up on the Sorc at first level is possible flexibility in spell choice from their spellbook.
But Why make them only blasters? there is more to the sorcerer class than only blasting. Of course they will never be swiss army knives, they had never been. But they used to be very flexible specialized tools, you wouldn't be a solve-it-all magic box -though I've seen some sorcerers played like that-, but you were instead a magical something in a way no wizard could ever hope: a magical thief, a magical conman, a magical explorer, a magical diplomat, a magical warrior. Having simple weapons to fall on helped you to not have to focus too many resources on combat. As a sorcerer you picked a niche and ran with it. Now you don't have the spells known, or the spell list, or the weapons to fill a niche that well, and given the changes to the wizard they now can run with your niche and still do other things, and do something different the next day.


Leave the utility to the Wiz, they've got the flexibility in their spell list. What you have is POWER. Your magic gets juice the wizards can't hope to match.

If you're looking for the Sorc to be "exactly like the wizard, only spontaneous and Cha-based, and maybe with some more weapons and spells!" I think you might be looking at it to deliver something it wasn't designed to deliver. Sorcerers in 5e are magic artillery, by and large, they have their own unique identity.
I wouldn't call being a blaster "a unique identity" -and lacking some means to energy mode spells is a strike versus this identity-, the very first wizard school was all about blasting. Again I don't want sorcerers to be like wizards, all I want them is to be like sorcerers, to have the ability to pick a niche, run with it, and being good at it without someone else casually dabbling into my niche and being better at it while still being able to do way more at the same time. Currently the sorcerer isn't very good at it, first the lack of weapons forces you to dedicate your few spells to blasting, so you cannot freely pick a niche, then your spell choices are very limited, hindering your ability to be good at a niche, then a wizard who prepared the right spells today can fill your niche, be better at it than you, and still have room to spare to do more stuff -because ritual casting-. If you want to be a niche caster, you now necessarily have to multiclass three levels into bard or warlock.

You're free to change it, o'course. Would not be shocked to see such things in the DMG.
See up there again, when I DM, I'm a tinkering Monty Haul that likes to say yes all the time. But it helps not and means nothing when I'm a player -the moment I'm more concerned with classes-, and of course not in Adventure League or Encounters or in Conventions.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why we need the sorcerer class at all.

Because as a concept it is entirely flexible. A sorcerer is someone mundane who gets to be magical at the same time. Unlike the wizards or warlocks who imply magic is this impossible and hard thing you have to bargain for or dedicate your whole life to, being a sorcerer has no strings attached, it is a way to have a magical character without it being overwhelmed by a strict and strong flavor and have it be focused on what you want to be focused at. With a wizard everything is about magic, it is a voluntary thing, and it is very rigid and restricting. (Also someone else said sorcerers are the x-men of D&D!)
 


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