D&D 5E Please someone explain to me

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
This works on a DM by DM basis, but how about adventure league? or encounters? Why should I negotiate with every DM one thing that should be by legacy alone?

Well, right now you don't have any choice in the matter. The game is the game. Which means that *if* you decide you want to play in the Adventurer's League, and *if* you choose to play a Sorcerer, and *if* you want this sorcerer to match what you got when playing one in 3E by using a spear... then what you do is very simple:

You make a 1st level Human Sorcerer and use your free feat to get the one that gives you proficiency in four weapons.

Is that feat selection proportionally more of a "fluff" choice than a "mechanical advantage" choice? Yup. But that's how many of the feats are. And since none of the feats are so outrageous, leaning further towards fluff reasons than mechanical advantage reasons for your choice is a completely acceptable decision. You just have to put character concept above being "optimal"... which for Adventurer's League isn't exactly all that necessary anyway.
 

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Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
Why should I want to have an attack cantrip in the first place? how do you feel more magical, frying kobolds or doing something more special?
Frying kobolds, absolutely. I can go pick up a spear and stab someone right now; I sure can't fling magic fire at someone.

For me, weapons seem suboptimal and unneeded for sorcerers. It's like telling a monk to use a longsword, even if it doesn't mesh well with her abilities. I don't see the advantage. *shrug*
 

Mallus

Legend
My 1st 5e PC is going to be a stout halfling draconic sorcerer (our group decided to make completely random characters, and that's what I rolled!).

So Bamford C. Bahamut's melee weapon is Shocking Grasp and his ranged is Ray of Frost -- both of which are 'cooler' than physical weapons because of their rider effects.

Had I chosen a caster class, I probably wouldn't have taken sorcerer, but the 5e implementation looks good, and the metamagic/sorcery point system seems like it'll provide enough mechanical dials for me to twiddle during play.
 

Dausuul

Legend
What was the reasoning behind not giving sorcerers all simple weapons and limiting their spell choices so much? Why restricting them to just a small subset equal to the wizard?

I can only think of reasons they should have:
  • Character conversion, all previous versions of the sorcerer could wield all simple weapons.
  • Spears are iconic for sorcerers. The iconic sorcerer from third edition -and that was still used in L&L- had a spear.
  • Not enough differentiation at first level, at least not in a good way. Except for talking to dragons -and how many dragons will you meet at first level?- there is nothing a first level sorcerer can do a wizard cannot do better while doing even more. Metamagic takes too long to come online, being able to at least use clubs, maces, spears and bows is a meaningful difference.
  • Overall balance, As a sorcerer you feel like a weak wizard, not having enough spell options to dedicate to utility, a seventh level wizard already knows more spells than a 20th level sorcerer will ever know! Wizard's ability to recover slots yields more slots at no cost, plus ritual casting and at later levels they get at-will 1st level slots. And certain metamagic options that could have made a difference like energy substitution just didn't make the cut. being more competent with weapons could have helped.
About the only argument I've heard is because it isn't the sorcerer job. But it doesn't convince me, then what of the warlock and cleric? So, can anybody explain me the reasoning behind it?
I would not expect simple weapon proficiency to have much if any effect on the sorcerer's power level. Maybe it provides a small benefit at low levels, but as soon as you hit level 5, attack cantrips become better than spears.

If you perceive sorcerers as being underpowered (I haven't looked at them enough to say whether I agree), granting simple weapon access is not likely to fix anything. On the other hand, if you just want to give them simple weapon access because it better suits your concept of the sorcerer, it shouldn't break anything, either.
 


DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Giving sorcerers the ability to use a spear without penalty would make them WAY overpowered.

Clearly.

Counterpoint: The spear is only overpowered *if* the sorcerer is also not required to wear at least 37 buckles on their uniform (or what some might call "pieces of flair") as per the standard image of Hennet. ;)
 

Boarstorm

First Post
The weight of the buckles would probably give him disadvantage on attacks with the spear... so maybe that's sufficient to bring the spear-wielding sorcerer in line with the other classes.

Maybe. It'll require playtesting.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Well, right now you don't have any choice in the matter. The game is the game. Which means that *if* you decide you want to play in the Adventurer's League, and *if* you choose to play a Sorcerer, and *if* you want this sorcerer to match what you got when playing one in 3E by using a spear... then what you do is very simple:

You make a 1st level Human Sorcerer and use your free feat to get the one that gives you proficiency in four weapons.

Is that feat selection proportionally more of a "fluff" choice than a "mechanical advantage" choice? Yup. But that's how many of the feats are. And since none of the feats are so outrageous, leaning further towards fluff reasons than mechanical advantage reasons for your choice is a completely acceptable decision. You just have to put character concept above being "optimal"... which for Adventurer's League isn't exactly all that necessary anyway.

When -not if- I finally get the time to join AL, I will do something like that, starting as bard gives the weapons and utility one will like as a sorcerer. And two extra levels at some time really gives you an edge. I believe that Silence + subtle spell or quick true strike and a real weapon would go a long way to give me the flavor I'm looking for.

Frying kobolds, absolutely. I can go pick up a spear and stab someone right now; I sure can't fling magic fire at someone.

For me, weapons seem suboptimal and unneeded for sorcerers. It's like telling a monk to use a longsword, even if it doesn't mesh well with her abilities. I don't see the advantage. *shrug*

But it has a potential for synergy. And I would rather just focus on which spells I can live without between light, dancing lights, minor image, mending, message, mage hand, prestidigitation & friends than being forced to pick a combat cantrip just because I don't have real weapons. Spears, sickles, shortbows and maces please!

Counterpoint: The spear is only overpowered *if* the sorcerer is also not required to wear at least 37 buckles on their uniform (or what some might call "pieces of flair") as per the standard image of Hennet. ;)

Yes, that is why no sane DM will allow Eschew Buckles in their game.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Just teasing out what seem like the big complaints:

1. Sorcerers can't fill a niche!
...there is more to the sorcerer class than only blasting. Of course they will never be swiss army knives, they had never been. But they used to be very flexible specialized tools, you wouldn't be a solve-it-all magic box -though I've seen some sorcerers played like that-, but you were instead a magical something in a way no wizard could ever hope: a magical thief, a magical conman, a magical explorer, a magical diplomat, a magical warrior.
As a sorcerer you picked a niche and ran with it. Now you don't have the spells known, or the spell list, or the weapons to fill a niche that well

I don't agree. 4 cantrips and 2 first level spells is plenty to fill a niche at 1st level.
  • A Magical Thief: Friends, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation / Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat
  • A Magical Conman: Friends, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation / Charm Person, Disguise Self
  • A Magical Explorer: Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation / Jump, Feather Fall
  • A Magical Diplomat: Friends, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation / Charm Person, Comprehend Languages
  • A Magical Warrior: Blade Ward, Fire Bolt, Shocking Grasp, True Strike / Shield, Thunderwave

That holds up well in comparison to, say, a 1st level Arcane Trickster, or a 1st level Bard.

2. Not having weapons means I HAVE TO blast!
Having simple weapons to fall on helped you to not have to focus too many resources on combat.
Currently the sorcerer isn't very good at it, first the lack of weapons forces you to dedicate your few spells to blasting

No, that's a choice. If you've got an evoker or an assassin or a barbarian or whatever in the party, you can spam minor illusion all day long and beat things with a stick and no one will care. Hell, even if you DON'T have a damage-dealer, you can still do that, you'll just have to be clever in how you approach the dungeon.

Nothing in the rules prohibits a sorcerer from taking exactly the load out of spells I outline above (or something similary. If you choose different spells, it is just that -- a choice. If it is more important for you to be well-rounded or have some blasting capability than it is to be a magical diplomat or whatever, it is not something the RAW is doing to you, it is your own choice.

3. WIZARDS, man, they are JUST BETTER
and given the changes to the wizard they now can run with your niche and still do other things, and do something different the next day.
Again I don't want sorcerers to be like wizards, all I want them is to be like sorcerers, to have the ability to pick a niche, run with it, and being good at it without someone else casually dabbling into my niche and being better at it while still being able to do way more at the same time.
a wizard who prepared the right spells today can fill your niche, be better at it than you

If some hypothetical wizard with access to every spell on their class list existed in the same party, and loaded out the exact same spells as a sorcerer that day (for some reason?), this would be the main difference:

The sorcerer has a higher AC/HP or auto-Advantage, one more cantrip than the wizard, and a better Charisma check. The wizard could use rituals, and has a better Int check.

This is not clearly "better." It is different, but rituals hardly make up for the defensive bonuses or advantage, and the flexibility of the at-will cantrip. Not to mention that if you want to be a magical diplomat or a magical conman, the higher CHA and auto-Advantage would give the Sorcerer the edge, while if you wanted to be a magical warrior or a magical explorer, the higher defenses would make the Sorcerer the better choice (who do YOU want taking the attack or the trap damage between these two?).

Yeah, the wizard could do something else tomorrow, but if the wizard goes to do something else, then they aren't playing in your chosen role anymore, so mission frickin' accomplished, you have a diverse party that each has their unique skills.

This looks like solid balancing to me. There's differences between the classes when they try to do the same thing. Both Sorcerers and Wizards can be played as, for instance, magical diplomats, if they want, and if they both do, they're both about as strong as each other. Both could also be played as magical blasters, and if they both do, they're both about as strong as each other. Or one could be played as a magical blaster and one as a magical diplomat and they both contribute something unique. Sorcerers can be good at what they want to be good at, but they're not an obviously better choice than other classes at those things. Exactly where it should be.

4. I can't house rule as a player!
See up there again, when I DM, I'm a tinkering Monty Haul that likes to say yes all the time. But it helps not and means nothing when I'm a player -the moment I'm more concerned with classes-, and of course not in Adventure League or Encounters or in Conventions.

In talking about a specific character you might make, there's solutions to the problems that crop up, but the prerequisite question then becomes, what kind of experience are you actually looking for with the character? If your answer is, "I want to be a 3e sorcerer," you're probably hitting a wall, but if what you want to be is a character with magic in their blood who is gishy, there's ways to accomplish that, and if you want to be a character who weilds a spear and casts spells, there's ways to accomplish that, and if you want to be a sorcerer who is capable in melee, there's ways to accomplish that. If you want a particular result, you can do it in several ways.

But if not being able to be a spear-wielding sorcerer from 1st level in Official Games kills the whole class experience for you, it sounds a bit like you're being kind of a precious little princess with a pea in her mattress. Not being able to (currently) do that is only a problem if that specific thing is your only goal. Be an elf and use a sword, re-fluff a quarterstaff (or tie a dagger on the end of one!), be a warlock and re-fluff your origin story, be an arcane trickster, be a bard, be a human and pick up a feat that gives you proficiency, there are a million ways to skin this cat depending on your goal.


5. Final Note: On Strings
A sorcerer is someone mundane who gets to be magical at the same time. Unlike the wizards or warlocks who imply magic is this impossible and hard thing you have to bargain for or dedicate your whole life to, being a sorcerer has no strings attached, it is a way to have a magical character without it being overwhelmed by a strict and strong flavor and have it be focused on what you want to be focused at. With a wizard everything is about magic, it is a voluntary thing, and it is very rigid and restricting. (Also someone else said sorcerers are the x-men of D&D!)

"No strings attached" doesn't match any character in any campaign that I've ever run, and it sounds like a boring character to play. I don't need a blank slate and a nude chassis. I want complications, back-stories, interesting hooks embedded into every bit of character creation. All the better to eradicate rootless murderhobos who act like violent toddlers instead of like some semblance of a character in a fantasy world. Wizards and Bards and Sorcerers and Warlocks all get strings attached.

Which is just to say that the level of strings is campaign-dependent, not class-dependent. You cannot choose any character who has no strings attached in my campaigns. If you choose a sorcerer in an effort to get out of character commitments and attachments, you will be sorely disappointed IMC (draconic ancestors and mutant magic are not going to be silent background events!). Perhaps in others, a DM never bothers to pluck ANY of the strings anyone attaches to their characters regardless of class because you're just running through convention adventures that don't care who you are as a character. Even if you choose a dedicated wizard loaded with hooks to local wizarding establishments, it might not ever come up in play except as a background event.
 


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