D&D 5E Fixing the terrible Weapon Master feat

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
DnD isn't a solo game, but it is a group game. And groups can be small. The game where I had a barbarian with this feat had a standard of three or four people in it. We are getting into the specific minutia here, but we had no rogues, no tanks except for me, and a veritable horde of multi-classed monstrosities. That 1d8+11 I could do with this feat and rage? It was the lowest damage in the party. The cleric was hitting for something like 5d8+5 at-will. So, especially in that instance I was being far from selfish, I was just trying to keep pace and fulfill my role.

Frontliner, great defense, decent but not OP offense. Stick in some enemies craw and let them choke on me while my party did the rest.

Also, I think "damage" is so easy to pull off that it is essentially a non-role. Being a tank and a damage dealer, or a sneaker and a damage dealer, is pretty much baked into the game anyways. And the type of people who care about you maybe dealing more damage than them are going to be doing way better than the guy who is playing a shield barbarian with a one-handed weapon.

So if your taking the role of front line defense, aka the tank. It seems like your "problem with the feat" is your trying to make it into a way to do more damage while your character is a defensive character that would better benefit from Shield Master or Defensive Dualist. The Cleric is your DPR, so why are you a defensive tank trying to compete with that damage? Why does being the lowest damage in the party matter? It should be understood based off of the role you chose as a tank. Their is not need for you to have "decent but not OP offense". My point is/was your competing in a fight against another players role, even though your not intended to be in that role. If you don't die and the Cleric gets to do there DPR because of it you did your job and the party will live because you never went down. That's what a tank does. So being unhappy with not getting more damage from a feat not intended for your role in the party seems so weird. What will happen with this is that that other melee DPR fighters will take your "new feat design" and add it to their DPR build and only make them further form you, then the GM will adapt encounters to increase the difficulty so encounters are not too easy and boring and you will still be just as far behind the rest as ever and the party weight you pull will not change because encounters adapted to the group..... net 0, now two players have wasted feats for no gain. Also... an ASI does the same thing, to this is only useful once you have hit the 20 cap to raise the cap, messing with bounded accuracy and making running the campaign harder on the GM because now everything has to be adjusted. … Its just not beneficial in any way that I can see. Fixing nothing and creating problems for no reason.

I'm responding down the line, so I don't know if you go into more detail later, but a wizard taking booming blade is doing something really weird. They are going to have to have at least decent dex or str (likely dex) to be able to hit with the weapon, because booming blade is a weapon attack. Sure, it has a nice effect, if you are darting in and out of combat. Which is not a specialty of the wizard with it's low AC, low HP, and general focus on not being on the frontlines.

Not saying you can't do it, but you are jumping through a lot of hoops to do it, and it is about the worst possible place you can put your wizard.

The assertion it that a Wizard, with taking weapons master for shortsword proficiency and warcaster is worried about playing optimal... if they were they would intellect to 20 first. 16 -> 18 lvl 4, 18 -> 20 lvl 8, Warcaster lvl 12, flavor weapons proficancy for warcaster booming blade spell attack with a melee weapon... of which they could have a 16 dex for mage armor and they could have no intention of moving into melee combat but the GM sneaks monsters behind them, they are fighting in tight space dungeon, and enemies are deliberately engaging different enemies triggering opportunity attacks by the wizard. … that's all completely reasonable to happen. But it does require the feat to have weapon proficiency unless the at high levels with bounded accuracy monster AC, the wizard wants to be stripped of the +6 to hit proficiency provides making flavor choices like this unfeasible. Booming blade is great control spell and it could be used to keep a rogue or caster away from your tank a round or suffer a great deal of damage and with +3 dex and +6 proficancy it's a functional flavor option. Without this feet as it its you remove this player choice option as an in rules functional player choice my restricting them form a possible +9 to a max of +3 that is not likely to be able to hit with bounded accuracy. This kind of unique game play is exactly why feats exist and your suggestion to make it a +1 to hit, +1 damage removes it for something that can be achieved with an ASI or raises it above the intended bounded accuracy cap when used by a fighter with a +3 sword and 20 strength and now another redundant +1/+1.... If your going to cause that pain, at the least I recommend you make it a "weapon specialist" feat of its own, instead of removing options only do add something optimizers will take to break bounded accuracy.

I don't think it is about DPR optimization though. I play things because they are cool, got a Fey Pact of the Chain right now, with an awesome backstory, whose combat potential is nowhere near where it could be (still decent because party of 3, I need to pull weight in combat, but very much built for non-combat roles). But when you build a "cool" concept, you pick the cool thing you want to focus on. And if you want to be a sword wielding warlock, there are options for that that do not take your feat.

And remember, this is a feat. Unless you are playing human you are getting this at 4th level (and you are either not playing a dwarf or an elf or want something they don't provide) which means you were probably doing something else for the first three levels. And if that something was eldritch blast, you see your attack you've been using, look at the new weapon, and it is plain that smaller dice are worse. It actually takes someone whose been around for a while to know it is an average of +/- 1, and even then it is hard to justify using a worse attack during combat (at least for me)

And, I look at that warlock, and I just don't get what value the sword has to the design space. You want to cast hold person with a low spell DC? You are just wasting actions if it is low enough (and trust me, that is a pain I've seen many, many players go through) and you get the same damage with a staff, especially since warlocks don't get shields by default.

So, you need a player who definitely wants magic swords, but doesn't want to play anything centered around getting magic swords, except for taking a feat partway through the campaign that only gives them the ability to wield swords worse than if they had just built for wielding swords from the beginning.

And, let us not forget, you can wield any weapon anyways. You just don't get your proficiency bonus to hit if you aren't proficient. So, it is a feat that only increases your accuracy to hit.

Lets, say you don't take it for DPR optimization. Once you make that change others can get it and will. That has to be taken into account. With bounded accuracy and as much as a +6 or +30% increase in "to hit" is a HUGE DEAL as ACs meat or pass AC23 then its the difference of 5% hit on natural 20 or 30% hit which makes a profound impact on the use of those weapons. Even at lower levels its still at least a +2 or +10% chance to hit.

Yeah, sometimes people are jerks. Weapons matter so little in the grand scheme of things that I would have no problem if someone wanted to get a specific subset trained into them. I'd say more than likely your Story GM just didn't want the wizard "Suddenly Knowing" how to do something because of the feat, not really about the mechanical imbalance of allowing him to pick up a longsword and hit slightly more often.

Story GM and its easier to follow the rules than debate house rules, so having the feat allows the action at all and role playing the gaining of the skill can be done so its interesting and not just .."look I can use swords now!" … which I am not thrilled about (I would like to use feats when I get them) but I understand.
 

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ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Sure, the point I was getting at was that a feat that grants weapon proficiencies needs to treat the weapon proficiencies as a ribbon and grant some other primary benefit.

For example the weapon master style feats should probably give proficiencies in their respective weapons. GWM should grant proficiency in 2 handed heavy weapons etc.

Weapon Master itself would likely make the most sense coupled with the martial adept feat that grants a few maneuvers and superiority dice.

I think adding "to hit" makes them less flavor and more a way to break bounded accuracy above and redundant to the ASI, +X magic weapons, and the scaling proficiency bonus we already have. There is a large risk doing more harm than good with that. It's also not like they are not good enough that I don't see polearm master, great weapons master, sharpshooter, shield master, mobility, medium armor master, and heavy armor master almost every campaign I have been in since 5e. Weapons Master and Martial Adept are the only ones that I don't see all the time and they while a little weak till have their niches and I have seen both at least once on player characters that were happy to have them.

However, I do agree Weapons Master combine with Martial Adept is not overpowered and its a lot more interesting than a striate +1/+1 without causing the issues with balance and bounded accuracy due to the superiority die resource limit.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think adding "to hit" makes them less flavor and more a way to break bounded accuracy above and redundant to the ASI, +X magic weapons, and the scaling proficiency bonus we already have. There is a large risk doing more harm than good with that. It's also not like they are not good enough that I don't see polearm master, great weapons master, sharpshooter, shield master, mobility, medium armor master, and heavy armor master almost every campaign I have been in since 5e. Weapons Master and Martial Adept are the only ones that I don't see all the time and they while a little weak till have their niches and I have seen both at least once on player characters that were happy to have them.

However, I do agree Weapons Master combine with Martial Adept is not overpowered and its a lot more interesting than a striate +1/+1 without causing the issues with balance and bounded accuracy due to the superiority die resource limit.

Now you are flip flopping on your goals a little. The previous goal of feats was to not be normal. Adding in weapon proficiencies into the main melee feats opens those feats up to spell casters that are interested in using a weapon. Why does it start mattering that you see such feats on fighters and such when you never see them on a wizard as is?
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Now you are flip flopping on your goals a little. The previous goal of feats was to not be normal. Adding in weapon proficiencies into the main melee feats opens those feats up to spell casters that are interested in using a weapon. Why does it start mattering that you see such feats on fighters and such when you never see them on a wizard as is?

I missed the weapons proficiency, I thought you meant a +2 to hit generic and separate add. I am okay with proficancy, you can't get double and it doesn't stack with itself and it would open up some interesting new options like mages staff fighting.

Sorry, I didn't flip flop I just miss read you. I think it was the 2 handed weapon that lead my mind astray.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
So if your taking the role of front line defense, aka the tank. It seems like your "problem with the feat" is your trying to make it into a way to do more damage while your character is a defensive character that would better benefit from Shield Master or Defensive Duelist.

I warn you, you play a dangerous game giving me openings to discuss my character build :p

And yeah, he had Shield Master. It's why I went variant human, because being a knight (background) was so vital to my concept that I wanted my sword and shield combo to be the best I could make it by level 1.

Also, you seem under a misconception. My problem with Weapon Master has nothing to do with my Barbarian Knight and how I built him. I knew about the Dawnforged Homebrew that I used from another source (I think I was looking for Magic Items when I found the document), and my Knight is only showing the one time I used it myself (I had a Ranger who played in a game I DM'd use it as well).

I've had a problem with RAW Weapon Master from the beginning, and it has everything to do with how 99% of characters will never take the feat, because the benefits it grants are not worth a feat. Especially in light of the potential of just multi-classing or playing an Elf or Dwarf who get some of the martial weapons you keep mentioning.


The Cleric is your DPR, so why are you a defensive tank trying to compete with that damage? Why does being the lowest damage in the party matter? It should be understood based off of the role you chose as a tank. Their is not need for you to have "decent but not OP offense". My point is/was your competing in a fight against another players role, even though your not intended to be in that role. If you don't die and the Cleric gets to do there DPR because of it you did your job and the party will live because you never went down. That's what a tank does. So being unhappy with not getting more damage from a feat not intended for your role in the party seems so weird. What will happen with this is that that other melee DPR fighters will take your "new feat design" and add it to their DPR build and only make them further form you, then the GM will adapt encounters to increase the difficulty so encounters are not too easy and boring and you will still be just as far behind the rest as ever and the party weight you pull will not change because encounters adapted to the group..... net 0, now two players have wasted feats for no gain. Also... an ASI does the same thing, to this is only useful once you have hit the 20 cap to raise the cap, messing with bounded accuracy and making running the campaign harder on the GM because now everything has to be adjusted. … Its just not beneficial in any way that I can see. Fixing nothing and creating problems for no reason.

Okay, you seem to be missing a few major points here. Maybe a fuller description of my build will make some of it clear.

At level 1, I took shield master because of two reasons. One, I wanted to play a knight who was not a fighter or paladin and that is a very "knightly" feat. Two, in playing a barbarian I got advantage on dex saves. Adding my shield bonus to those saves and being able to reduce a successful save to 0 damage was awesome for a defensive build, plus I always loved the visual of the guy holding off dragon fire with his shield.

At Level 3, continuing my original plan, I took the Ancestral Guardians path. This not only (eventually) provided me with a reaction shield to reduce damage coming into my allies, but also meant that enemies I struck had disadvantage to hit said allies and only did half damage to them.

At level 4, I took the Dawnforged Weaponmaster. Because, I was already a pretty dang good tank. I had a huge pool of hp, I had good abilities to protect my allies, but I was dealing the least amount of damage out of everyone. As a barbarian, who is traditionally on the higher end of damage. Also, by dealing low damage, I was a much lesser threat to the enemies. This would only get worse with time, so I invested in increasing my damage with a homebrew feat I knew of and my DM approved.

LEvel 8, I took Tenacious, which is also Dawnforged and is a combination of Tough and Durable, making me even more of a living punching bag.

Level 12 I took a feat from Tal'dorie called Mending affinity, which increased all of my healing by my proficiency, making it easier to refill my massive hit point pool and keep me on my feet.


None of this has to do with me looking at the RAW Weapon Master feat and feeling it was inadequate. The only reason I took the DF Feat was because I was looking to increase my damage, because it was lower than I liked. I made that choice to have a lower damage ceiling, but that doesn't mean that I had to ignore an ability that could mitigate that.

Pyro-blasters take elemental adept to increase their damage by ignoring fire resistance.
Fighters take resilient Wisdom to shore up their defenses against magic.
I took a feat to increase my damage because it was too low for a front-liner trying to hold the enemies attention.

Also, an ASI would not do the same thing as this feat, since the DF increase the damage by proficiency, meaning that you need 2 ASI's to matching taking this feat at level 4, and it increases it by a max of +6, which is more than any character can get via ASI's.

Also, despite me going through this. I never once said you had to like this homebrew feat. You don't like a damage increase? Fine. Don't use it, it was just a suggestion. All I have been trying to do is show that it isn't incredibly overpowered. As you mention, damage is the easiest thing for a DM to account for in a fight. You want to come up with a better homebrew, then that's awesome, I'd love to talk about it. But the RAW feat is bad, and my opinion on that has nothing to do with my previous character or the homebrew I replaced the feat with. That is a separate discussion.




The assertion it that a Wizard, with taking weapons master for shortsword proficiency and warcaster is worried about playing optimal... if they were they would intellect to 20 first. 16 -> 18 lvl 4, 18 -> 20 lvl 8, Warcaster lvl 12, flavor weapons proficancy for warcaster booming blade spell attack with a melee weapon... of which they could have a 16 dex for mage armor and they could have no intention of moving into melee combat but the GM sneaks monsters behind them, they are fighting in tight space dungeon, and enemies are deliberately engaging different enemies triggering opportunity attacks by the wizard. … that's all completely reasonable to happen. But it does require the feat to have weapon proficiency unless the at high levels with bounded accuracy monster AC, the wizard wants to be stripped of the +6 to hit proficiency provides making flavor choices like this unfeasible. Booming blade is great control spell and it could be used to keep a rogue or caster away from your tank a round or suffer a great deal of damage and with +3 dex and +6 proficancy it's a functional flavor option. Without this feet as it its you remove this player choice option as an in rules functional player choice my restricting them form a possible +9 to a max of +3 that is not likely to be able to hit with bounded accuracy. This kind of unique game play is exactly why feats exist and your suggestion to make it a +1 to hit, +1 damage removes it for something that can be achieved with an ASI or raises it above the intended bounded accuracy cap when used by a fighter with a +3 sword and 20 strength and now another redundant +1/+1.... If your going to cause that pain, at the least I recommend you make it a "weapon specialist" feat of its own, instead of removing options only do add something optimizers will take to break bounded accuracy.

I kind of got lost in the wall of text, but here are some thoughts, ignoring your misunderstanding of the homebrew feat, since I covered that above.

Why is this wizard using a shortsword?

If they are looking for a finesse weapon, they have daggers. The average difference in damage mathematically is +/-1. By taking the weapon master feat, all you are doing is either getting flavor or getting a +1 to damage. The exact thing you don't want from the feat.

You're meandering example of why a wizard would use booming blade as a reaction to hit monsters running past them, or how booming blade is a useful melee attack if they are ambushed from behind has nothing to do with them using a shortsword.

Booming blade works with daggers, it works with staves, if this is just talking about using the cantrip in emergencies... well then it addresses nothing about the feat itself.

Your entire premise is "But what if I want to play a wizard with a sword, but I don't want to play an Elf?"

That is a terrible defense of this feat. You can find alternative ways to get weapons proficiencies. If it is only about flavor then we can find other ways to get there. But, mechanically, it is a bad feat. It offers nothing to the vast majority of characters and players.


Lets, say you don't take it for DPR optimization. Once you make that change others can get it and will. That has to be taken into account. With bounded accuracy and as much as a +6 or +30% increase in "to hit" is a HUGE DEAL as ACs meat or pass AC23 then its the difference of 5% hit on natural 20 or 30% hit which makes a profound impact on the use of those weapons. Even at lower levels its still at least a +2 or +10% chance to hit.

Ummm... they already can? The homebrew feat I mentioned has been published for almost two years or more.

Yes, if a DM allows it in their game they must account for it. It is homebrew, you always have to account for adding homebrew into your game.

My only point is that +6 damage, while it feels good to the player, isn't wrecking encounters and ruining the game. I played it, I took the feat not to do the most damage ever, though I know I could, but because it fit my concept and let me stay in line with my party.


Story GM and its easier to follow the rules than debate house rules, so having the feat allows the action at all and role playing the gaining of the skill can be done so its interesting and not just .."look I can use swords now!" … which I am not thrilled about (I would like to use feats when I get them) but I understand.

Umm... roleplaying the gaining of a weapon proficiency can be done too? Training montages are a thing, and watching a warrior learning how to use their weapon can be an engaging story. Heck, I've read more than one book where the main character spends a good quarter or more of the story being taught ho to fight.

I get some DM's don't like houserules. That sucks. But, it doesn't change anything I'm saying. The original feat is still a bad feat, whether DM's use houserules or not. Whether it is the only way to make a human gandalf the grey wielding a longsword or not. It is still a bad feat.
 

Scott Graves

First Post
I've looked over the feats and I'd say at least half of them seem useless to any kind of character I'd like to make. Picking up four weapon proficiencies is one of those in my mind. Now if I wanted to play a normal Wizard I would see that feat as a nice one along with Light Armor Proficiency. To be a Human wizard who can swing a great sword and wear leather armor at 4th level would certainly confuse the heck out of a bad guy. He wouldn't tag you as a caster right out of the box. Might be cute if that's what you want to pull off.
 

Xeviat

Hero
Remember: weapon proficiency really works out to +1 damage per attack for characters who have simple weapon proficiency. The jump between shortbow and longbow, or light crossbow and heavy crossbow ... Anyone who gets multiple attacks is already proficient in martial weapons, and only the fighter gets more than 2/3 anyway.

+prof to damage seems way too much when compared to great weapon mastery or in the hands of a fighter.

Just make it "+1 str or dex, and all simple and martial weapon proficiency". No one cares that the fighter doesn't need to take the armor proficiency feats.

Even with all weapon proficiencies, it's still a weak feat for single attack characters. Martial weapons don't have enough advantages, except maybe reach.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
The real utility of the is feat is to allow players to become proficient in weapons that are not in the standard tables. For example, if you have black powder weapons in you game, players could only become proficient in them using this feat. Or if the campaign focuses on ship to ship combat, the players could become proficient with cannons with this feat.

This allows character to become proficient in weapons that would not be available just through multiclassing.
 

Eubani

Legend
Another problem I have with this feat is that it is not what is written on the tin. Basic proficiency in several weapons does not make one a weapon master. I would not mind it's existence if it was called Weapons Training or something of that vain and Weapon Master actually made a character a Weapon Master.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The real utility of the is feat is to allow players to become proficient in weapons that are not in the standard tables. For example, if you have black powder weapons in you game, players could only become proficient in them using this feat. Or if the campaign focuses on ship to ship combat, the players could become proficient with cannons with this feat.

This allows character to become proficient in weapons that would not be available just through multiclassing.

I'd argue that a feat that allows you to become proficient in weapons that most games do not use isn't great.

Especially since the tables in the DMG for blackpowder weapons do give the layout for who should get proficiency in them if they are a common staple of your world.

So, you are looking at getting proficiency in a weapon that is incredibly rare, and that your DM did not give proficiency for to begin with.

That isn't "real utility" that's a niche that it just happens to cover.
 

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