D&D 5E Is my DM being fair?

Corwin · Jun 15, 2017

lowkey13 said:
Not entirely sure that logic applies.

Person says that they have a lot of cars. They don't want to bother pricing them out, so they will sell any car for $5000 on the lot.

It is pointed out, prior to the offer being made public, that the lot happens to contain three Bugattis and two McLarens, in addition to the fleet of old Camrys. The person removes the five cars, and sells off the rest.

What a terrible analogy.

First, those old Camrys are still going to be ranked best to worst. And most buyers are going to want the best remaining car.

Second, you are claiming that the feats being banned are somehow so far exceptional/superior (or broken) that they exceed the value of the others by a factor equivalent to a McLaren/Bugatti to an old Camry. That's ridiculous hyperbole. Feats have an intrinsic level of subjective value that simply do not compare to car prices. And even if given some feats can be seen as generally better than certain others to some degree, nothing like the disparity in worth by such a magnitude you are implying.

Corwin · Jun 15, 2017

Caliban said:
Next on the chopping block:

Observant
Skulker
Heavy Armor Master
Mobile
Shield Master

Yup. Exactly the point I was getting at.

robus · Jun 15, 2017

JonnyP71 said:
I couldn't agree less with this. It's perfectly fine to ask a party to roll initiative when they do not have a clue of what they face or where it is, in fact it is sometimes necessary to do so in order to preserve a real sense of tension.

This is where I think the Alexandrian's idea of rolling for initiative at the end of combat is genius. It seeds the initiative order early so that the transition into combat is very smooth (i.e. no "combat swoosh" where the action is paused while dice are rolled).

See here: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/591/roleplaying-games/random-gm-tips-running-combat

1. ROLL INITIATIVE LAST: Have your players roll their initiatives at the end of combat. Use this initiative for the next combat. (Initiative modifiers essentially never change, so it doesn’t really matter when you roll the check.) When it looks like the PCs are about to encounter something, roll for its initiative and slot it into the order. If they don’t encounter it for some reason, no big deal.

Using this method, by the time combat starts, initiative is already completely resolved. As a result, there’s no delay while you ask for initiative, the dice are rolled, your players tell you their results, and then you sort the results into order. This allows you to start combat off with a bang and keep the ball rolling with that same high intensity. It means that when the players are ambushed, you can maintain that adrenaline rush of surprise instead of immediately undermining it with the mundane task of collecting initiative.

This method also means that initiative results are generally being collected at a time when other bookkeeping chores are being done anyway: After the heat of battle, wounds are being healed; corpses are being looted; equipment lists are being updated; and options are being discussed.

lowkey13 · Jun 15, 2017

*Deleted by user*

Ovinomancer · Jun 15, 2017

JonnyP71 said:
I couldn't agree less with this. It's perfectly fine to ask a party to roll initiative when they do not have a clue of what they face or where it is, in fact it is sometimes necessary to do so in order to preserve a real sense of tension.

Sorry, but if you need to use bad mechanics to achieve a real sense of tension, you're doing it wrong. Forcing players to make action declarations with no reason to do so is bad play. And saying that they have to act with no information as to why is bad mechanics. There's plenty of ways to build real tension without screwing over your players this way. Plenty.

iserith · Jun 15, 2017

robus said:
This is where I think the Alexandrian's idea of rolling for initiative at the end of combat is genius. It seeds the initiative order early so that the transition into combat is very smooth (i.e. no "combat swoosh" where the action is paused while dice are rolled).

I don't mind that pause. I think of it like setting up an exciting moment, then going to commercial. It also gives the players a few moments to strategize amongst themselves before I reframe and go to the first turn. If it's going to be a particularly big set piece, I may even call for a short break.

robus · Jun 15, 2017

iserith said:
I don't mind that pause. I think of it like setting up an exciting moment, then going to commercial. It also gives the players a few moments to strategize amongst themselves before I reframe and go to the first turn. If it's going to be a particularly big set piece, I may even call for a short break.

But have you ever tried it the other way? I'm going to in my next session (not with the trainee group) and see how it feels in reality... my brain is loving the idea though!

Sorry for derailing the thread...

iserith · Jun 15, 2017

robus said:
But have you ever tried it the other way? I'm going to in my next session (not with the trainee group) and see how it feels in reality... my brain is loving the idea though!

Sorry for derailing the thread...

No, it probably wouldn't work well in my specific case because I run games with Roll20. Things get weird when you set up turn order then change maps. And in any case, the person who takes the longest to set up initiative in this setup is the DM, usually, because of multiple monsters. The players need only select token and click Initiative and they are done. DM needs to click each monster token (or just one per monster type if a group of the same monsters), click Initiative, then when done sort it (two more clicks).

JonnyP71 · Jun 15, 2017

Ovinomancer said:
Sorry, but if you need to use bad mechanics to achieve a real sense of tension, you're doing it wrong. Forcing players to make action declarations with no reason to do so is bad play. And saying that they have to act with no information as to why is bad mechanics. There's plenty of ways to build real tension without screwing over your players this way. Plenty.

Again, I couldn't disagree more.

One of my DMs would frequently say 'ok, so if you are all entering the cavern I need you all to roll initiative'. He might then describe the cavern darkening, or the sound of tiny feet from somewhere, sometimes nothing - just an eerie silence.

We would then take turns in order until the attack came (with strictly no metagaming), maybe a Piercer would drop when a PC stood on a certain spot - and we would start combat from the point the attack began. If a PC with Alert was in any position to take an action (and was ahead of the enemy in the initiative order at this point) then they would get a chance to do so.

It just feels *better* that way imho.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 15, 2017

cmad1977 said:
A couple of the guys in my group took alert. The passive perceptions are crazy high and they can't be surprised. I love it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The thing that stands out to me is, they can be surprised *inside the game world*, they just cannot be "surprised" in a gaming sense. They take their first turn as normal no matter how shocked, dismayed, etc they are by the ambush. They don't necessarily see an ambush or sucker punch coming, they just respond to it as if they were ready for it, because they are always ready for it.

D&D 5E Is my DM being fair?

Corwin

Explorer

Corwin

Explorer

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller

lowkey13

Guest

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

JonnyP71

Explorer

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

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