D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

5ekyu

Hero
The Sorcerer isn't trying to be "Batman" aka the Wizard. You don't need a different collection of spells for every pillar of the game, you have team mates or minions for that.
Yup absolutely and obviously there cannot be a span between the trying to be batman and the other options so... there you have it.

In my experience in play, this difference matters a lot in actual play and effectiveness. It may not show up on the excel damage tracker but when it comes to power at the table it matters a lot.

The key being, they are both primary spellcasters and the sorc doesnt get much that offsets the huge drop in effectiveness.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
Well, I can only speak to my own experiences. I've played a sorcerer from level 5 to level 16 over 2 years and about 30 sessions. I'm also currently playing a wizard in one of my games. There are times when I've appreciated the breadth of rituals available to me as a wizard. I've certainly appreciated arcane recovery. Swapping spells is nice, but it hasn't prevented me from having times where I've looked at my spell list and said "Oh, if only I had prepared this spell!" (Something I often said when playing my sorcerer, substituting learned for prepared.) And I've certainly missed being able to twin a buff spell, or quicken a spell while dashing or casting a cantrip.

If one wants to make an argument that the sorcerer could use a few more sorcery points, or a few more metamagic options, or some better subclass features, sure, I'm on board. I think the wizard is probably a little better, overall, although a sorcerer is a better MC option. My main disagreement is that I think the core concept of the sorcerer is the limited spell selection, and that limited spell selection is FUN. It forces you to make hard choices while leveling, and it forces you to make the best decisions in play while choosing among suboptimal choices. The wizard has some of that, also, but it simply feels less impactful because it's easier to fix.
So, playing a wizard and only choosing to learn half the spells would be more fun for you?

:)

If I could redo specs, there would be an pairs of bonus known spells for each sub-class. That addition of a thematic addition of one spell per level imo is enough to get you "what my sub-class should want" and "one more thing" you can spell at. You are way below the wizard still in variety but you have enough flex to be at least a two-fisted caster.

I would tweak a sub-class - giving a true "fey" option that's not wild magic.
Could go another route and look for the "improves metamagic", "improves spells known" and "improves sorcery points" type of sub-classes design, making something more warlock like with heritage and features divided into two smaller but independent options.

But that's me.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Not entirely on topic but the biggest flaw of the Sorcerer isn't what you get but what you don't get. Just think about it for a minute - what cool archetypal characters do you think of when you imagine sorcery?
Hmm. Thematically, it would be an inborn power that doesn't require esoteric study to channel and isn't granted by an external entity. Channelers from Wheel of Time, maybe? Some of the Knights Radiant from Stormlight Archive? (Although they might be viewed as more warlock-y).

In actual play, it basically boils down to this: any choice that isn't inspired by having a red dragon as ancestor carries a penalty of being a mechanically inferior one. The PHB class brings remarkably little mechanical encouragement for variety.
Hey, that's not true. You could also have a brass dragon as an ancestor. Or a gold dragon! (Xanathar's helps, as Divine Soul and Shadow Sorcerer are both decent.)
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
So, playing a wizard and only choosing to learn half the spells would be more fun for you?
I mean, I'm not going to self-nerf, but I would trade the spellbook for metamagic and the spells known of a sorcerer, yes.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I mean, I'm not going to self-nerf, but I would trade the spellbook for metamagic and the spells known of a sorcerer, yes.
So basically trading the origin features for arcane recovery and the wizard sub-class trees while keeping meta-magic and sorc points - yeah that's a no-brainer from a power gain perspective.

If I had my struthers for class feature swapperroo...

Warlocks woulda got meta-magic and sorc points - cast a few boosted spells- and sorcerers woulda got invocations - some tied to origin, some choice. The invocations would allow (among other things ) you to add spells known, features yo spells etc.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
So basically trading the origin features for arcane recovery and the wizard sub-class trees while keeping meta-magic and sorc points - yeah that's a no-brainer from a power gain perspective.

If I had my struthers for class feature swapperroo...

Warlocks woulda got meta-magic and sorc points - cast a few boosted spells- and sorcerers woulda got invocations - some tied to origin, some choice. The invocations would allow (among other things ) you to add spells known, features yo spells etc.
If we're in the weeds for "How I would have done 5e", I would have combined sorcerer and warlock. Full caster, gain sorcery points for metamagic or more spell slots. Demonic pact and feytouched would have been origins. Metamagic options and invocations would be pulled from the same pool.

I would also have added some sorcerer-only spells that lasted 24 hours and gave an invocation-like benefit. That way you could trade in a spells known slot + a spell slot for more invocations if desired.
 

Gwarok

Explorer
It's the lack of versatility. If you have the spells, you can load the exact same thing any sorcerer can, which is almost certainly going to be aimed at combat functionality. How many sorcerers are going to have a long repertoire of divination spells? Contact Other Plane is awesome, as is Legend Lore. As is Scry. Seems to me everyone talking about how people don't get why Sorcerers are good is simply asking some variation on "what if we dropped them both in an arena, who would win?". Which is one part of the game. But in a big campaign world, a well done one, not unlike the real world, it's about knowing what you are getting into first that allows you to bring the right tools to deal with it. Once all the research is done, then you can hat up and go in guns blazing.

But what about other spell combinations? I tried to make a single guy that could work his way through a deathtrap dungeon. He ended up being a necro with Investigation, Perception, Observant feat. He makes undead, sends them in to scout. Has them followed with an Arcane Eye. He has detect magic up. He sees what they see and what kills them. Assuming he's 15th level, he'd have Clone and Simulacrum, two spells I doubt any Sorcerer would ever get since they are so situational. But that means you have a duplicate of yourself at your side, who can at least blast away with cantrips forever, take hits for you, and assist on any skill checks(what an apprentice!). Also, if you die, you don't really die. You use those VERY specific spells, them put them aside for more practical ones until you need them again.

Teleportation circle? Any Sorcerer ever going to get that? Probably not. But a wizard would, and assuming you spend a few years in game time, you've got yourself a new network of rapid transit you made and you know about. A 15th caster also has access to 8th level spells. If that was me, I'd be using it to summon and bind elementals. Using a 6th level slot, you summon Invisible Stalkers. Use a 4th level slot make a circle that lasts 2 hours. Then use an 8th Planar Binding to enslave it for 6 months. Or even 1 month if you just want to use a 7th level. Even at 11th level you can use a 6th level slot to bind CR 5 elementals for a week. That's pretty nice. You'll have have a small army of loyal servants to carry out your business. Collect as many as you can or want given those constraints, then when it's game time you swap out to fireball, shield, whatever you want. You can have Dispel AND Counterspell. Also, you can use your divinations to increase the likelyhood you select the right spells for the job before you get to it. If you're smart. Do we need to see in the dark, do we need illusions? Wizards can do it all, and anyone who thinks that isn't amazing is nuts.

Anyways, you might notice I haven't even gotten to the specific type of wizard you are yet, because frankly just the ability to swap out spells and have access to ALL of them potentially, is awesome enough. The rest is just bonus. If you're looking for best in a fight, I'm pretty sure you're going with either Abjurer or Diviner, but any will do frankly. I would not play a sorcerer unless all I wanted to do was blow things up or had a DM that thinks that is all the game is about.
 

Oliver Xu

First Post
No one ever thought of houserules before. [/snark]

Look, yelling at people to change rules when the point of the discussion is to examine the rules as they are written is not constructive. You haven't stumbled one some new truth everyone else has missed.

Of course, it isn't a new truth that I "yelled" at you people. It's just a common sense fix that you guys just refuse to use. :p
Either way, it's surprising that this thread was revived. It just goes to show how deep-rooted this annoying conflict can go on, I suppose.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It's pretty ridiculous that many people here overrate the Wizards's utility and underrate Sorcerer's metamagic for some really dumb reasons.
In my (superior) opinion, Wizards and Sorcerers are equal, they can both do different things that can't be compared properly, and they should compliment each other in a party together instead of arguing to each other about who's superior like in these imbecilic internet forms.
Plus: If you are really gonna complain about the limited spell list so god dang much, then just ask the DM to make the Sorcerer's number of spells known equal to the Bard's number. It's that freaking simple people.

Don’t post in this thread again. And learn some manners.
 

gyor

Legend
It's the lack of versatility. If you have the spells, you can load the exact same thing any sorcerer can, which is almost certainly going to be aimed at combat functionality. How many sorcerers are going to have a long repertoire of divination spells? Contact Other Plane is awesome, as is Legend Lore. As is Scry. Seems to me everyone talking about how people don't get why Sorcerers are good is simply asking some variation on "what if we dropped them both in an arena, who would win?". Which is one part of the game. But in a big campaign world, a well done one, not unlike the real world, it's about knowing what you are getting into first that allows you to bring the right tools to deal with it. Once all the research is done, then you can hat up and go in guns blazing.

But what about other spell combinations? I tried to make a single guy that could work his way through a deathtrap dungeon. He ended up being a necro with Investigation, Perception, Observant feat. He makes undead, sends them in to scout. Has them followed with an Arcane Eye. He has detect magic up. He sees what they see and what kills them. Assuming he's 15th level, he'd have Clone and Simulacrum, two spells I doubt any Sorcerer would ever get since they are so situational. But that means you have a duplicate of yourself at your side, who can at least blast away with cantrips forever, take hits for you, and assist on any skill checks(what an apprentice!). Also, if you die, you don't really die. You use those VERY specific spells, them put them aside for more practical ones until you need them again.

Teleportation circle? Any Sorcerer ever going to get that? Probably not. But a wizard would, and assuming you spend a few years in game time, you've got yourself a new network of rapid transit you made and you know about. A 15th caster also has access to 8th level spells. If that was me, I'd be using it to summon and bind elementals. Using a 6th level slot, you summon Invisible Stalkers. Use a 4th level slot make a circle that lasts 2 hours. Then use an 8th Planar Binding to enslave it for 6 months. Or even 1 month if you just want to use a 7th level. Even at 11th level you can use a 6th level slot to bind CR 5 elementals for a week. That's pretty nice. You'll have have a small army of loyal servants to carry out your business. Collect as many as you can or want given those constraints, then when it's game time you swap out to fireball, shield, whatever you want. You can have Dispel AND Counterspell. Also, you can use your divinations to increase the likelyhood you select the right spells for the job before you get to it. If you're smart. Do we need to see in the dark, do we need illusions? Wizards can do it all, and anyone who thinks that isn't amazing is nuts.

Anyways, you might notice I haven't even gotten to the specific type of wizard you are yet, because frankly just the ability to swap out spells and have access to ALL of them potentially, is awesome enough. The rest is just bonus. If you're looking for best in a fight, I'm pretty sure you're going with either Abjurer or Diviner, but any will do frankly. I would not play a sorcerer unless all I wanted to do was blow things up or had a DM that thinks that is all the game is about.

You can get a bunch of divination spells with a Ritual Caster Feat.

You summon and bind an Elemental Stalker for 6 months, you've just bound up your concentration for six months. I think. Does Planar Binding continue the need to maintain concentration on the summoning?

Anyways a Divine Soul can out do that, a Divine Soul can summon a Couatl with Conjure Celestial and use a heightened Planar Binding upon it. Or use twinned Planar Binding. Or just cast Planar Ally and not need the Planar Binding Spell (admittedly expensive) or Consentration. Or Cast Gate and Planar Binding. Or True Resurrection and Planar Binding on a dead Fey/Elemental/Celestial/Fiend (if said being does not have a corpse or you possess it).

A Divine Soul can also just send in undead and an Arcane Eye if they so choose. Planeshifting into the Ethereal plane at that location would likely just be easier way to spy.

Most Sorcerers have at will flight or teleportation, Wizards don't.
 
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