Star Trek Discovery not getting any better I fear.

Aeson · Mar 20, 2019

Hussar said:
Why watch something you don't like? Good grief, there are THOUSANDS of shows on. You have to actually PAY to watch this. What kind of masochist watches something they don't like just to then go and bitch to all and sundry about how they don't like it?

The Youtube folks will tell you it's their job as *critics* "We do it so you don't have to." I hope I never reach their level hate.

I wonder if the studios that produce the shows, and movies have any idea what fandom is. Fans will still buy merchandise, even toys no matter their age. Despite this they feel they have to change things to appeal to new audiences. I watch Star Trek because my parents watched it when I was a kid. If I had children they would have watched it too. Season 2 seems to be more appealing to the established fan base. If they continue to listen to fans, which I like to believe was done with S2, S3 will be even better.

It'll be sad to see Pike go but I still look forward to season 3. I wonder who the new captain will be. I'm not sure Saru is the one, but I'd like to see a non Vulcan alien. The captains have all been humans thus far. That's speciest. There should be more alien representation on TV.

Jester David · Mar 20, 2019

Hussar said:
I don't want a retread Star Trek that's the same as the previous Star Treks.

Yes. How DARE I want a Star Trek show to be like Star Trek. How completely unreasonable is it that I want something advertised as belonging to an established franchise to feel like it's consistent with that franchise and not an unrelated TV show with the "Star Trek" name slapped overtop.

I also expect coffee I buy to taste like coffee and not tea. Rock music to sound like rock and not soft jazz. Hot dogs to taste like pork and not chicken.
D&D to be a roleplaying game and not a tactical miniature wargame.

Hussar said:
Why watch something you don't like?

In this instance, because I'm emotionally invested in Star Trek, having been a fan of the franchise since I was eight years old, and prior to the premier of The Next Generation. Because in the past a major part of my self identity was "a Star Trek fan". Because I've wanted a new Star Trek show for over a decade and was anxiously awaiting Discovery since it was announced.
Because I want to like it. But I can't because I'm not going to lie to myself just because it's pretty and has a budget.

Again, I liked a lot of this season. I loved what they did the episode before last. What they did with Pike was amazing, and fixed a major problem with The Original Series and made his ending a truly happy one. It was touching and lovely and a great homage to the past that didn't feel too forced or much like fan service while still remaining undeniably Discovery.
But, man, after that last episode I'm really tempted to just walk away.

With two episodes left, I might keep watching. Because I hate leaving things undone. It nags at my soul. But unless the ending blows me away I'm likely done with the series. And very possibly a franchise...

Hussar said:
You have to actually PAY to watch this.

Canadian. It's on the cable channel I already pay for. It costs me zero extra.

(I couldn't subscribe to CBS All-Access even if I wanted.)

Hussar said:
Good grief, there are THOUSANDS of shows on.

Sure.
Name ONE other show that's a long lasting franchise with decades of history, tight continuity, and a generally consistent tone.

One other series that is equivalent in Star Trek in terms of legacy and canon.

Hussar said:
What kind of masochist watches something they don't like just to then go and bitch to all and sundry about how they don't like it?

Because, and here's the kicker, I WANT IT TO GET BETTER. Already, based on feedback from fans, season 2 improved. I was very positive about the beginning of the season. Because it improved and they seemed to be taking criticism from the fans and adjusting the show based on that.

So why complain? Because I believe the show could get better still. Because I believe there's a happy medium that would satisfy both groups of fans.

But clearly I'm doing it wrong and should just give up right away the second something I love disappoints me, and should stop expecting quality from genre television.

Hussar · Mar 20, 2019

Jester David said:
Yes. How DARE I want a Star Trek show to be like Star Trek. How completely unreasonable is it that I want something advertised as belonging to an established franchise to feel like it's consistent with that franchise and not an unrelated TV show with the "Star Trek" name slapped overtop.

I also expect coffee I buy to taste like coffee and not tea. Rock music to sound like rock and not soft jazz. Hot dogs to taste like pork and not chicken.
D&D to be a roleplaying game and not a tactical miniature wargame.

Hrm. Coffee that tastes like coffee. Would that be Kenyan, Vietnamese, Arabica, or one of the thousand variations of coffee that taste very, very differently. Hot dogs that taste like pork? Yuck. Gimme beef hotdogs any day of the week. Or goat. Goat hotdogs are actually surprisingly good.

/snip

Because, and here's the kicker, I WANT IT TO GET BETTER. Already, based on feedback from fans, season 2 improved. I was very positive about the beginning of the season. Because it improved and they seemed to be taking criticism from the fans and adjusting the show based on that.

So why complain? Because I believe the show could get better still. Because I believe there's a happy medium that would satisfy both groups of fans.

But clearly I'm doing it wrong and should just give up right away the second something I love disappoints me, and should stop expecting quality from genre television.

Thing is, your better is my worse. You want Roddenberry era Star Trek? Blech. First three seasons of TNG suck. And suck badly. TNG didn't get good until they ejected Roddenberry. But, if you want "classic" if that's the word, Star Trek, you've got several hundred hours of watching. Why can't I get several hundred hours of what I want to watch?

Why does "quality" mean, "things [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] likes"? I liked the first season. I liked the darker aspects. I liked that they were telling Trek stories that weren't sanitized pablum where Star Fleet is always on the side of angels. We've had decades of that. Howzabout a bit more depth of story telling where no one is always the white hats?

Your version of quality is anything but. It's a solid show, set in a believable universe with a pretty decent storyline. "Oh, but, it's not living up to thirty year old canon of Episode 86 of whateverdahell Star Trek is the "good" Star Trek because I happen to like it". It's ludicrous.

If you don't like something, great. You don't like it. But, punishing yourself by spending, well, now presuming you watched season 1 and season 2, twenty some hours watching something you don't like seems really, really strange. I will never understand fans who seem to feel they have ownership over a property. It's just mind blowing the self entitlement that fans profess.

Zardnaar · Mar 20, 2019

Hussar said:
Y'know, sometimes it's an advantage being so far away from all the hype machine. I saw virtually no promotional material for Star Trek. Heck, I see very little promotional material for nearly anything unless I go looking for it. Means I get to judge things based on my own views.

Nearly all the criticisms that [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] brings up really don't bother me. I don't judge shows based on other shows. I don't want a retread Star Trek that's the same as the previous Star Treks. I don't. The writers just can't win. Do something new and the haters come out of the woodwork claiming they're disrespecting tradition. Stay the path and they get hammered for being unoriginal and boring.

Why watch something you don't like? Good grief, there are THOUSANDS of shows on. You have to actually PAY to watch this. What kind of masochist watches something they don't like just to then go and bitch to all and sundry about how they don't like it?

We watch it on Netflix. We're already paying for Netflix and ran out of other sci fi shows to watch and to binge watch.

Also started watching DS9. STD looks amazing but the lighting is dark so it kind of sets the tone of the show. Not a Trekkie just treating it like a sci fi show. Seen worse seen a lot better.

It has some problems a big one being the characters, none of them are overly likeable. It's chalk and cheese say compared with DS9 where I like Quark, Odo and Dax. My wife likes Odo.

Had a decent pilot but some episodes it's been really hard to watch. Unlike say The Orville or The Expanse.

I would put it ahead of season 10 Doctor Who, the last episode was quite good, overall it's hit and miss. Sense 8 was also better.

Zardnaar · Mar 20, 2019

Hussar said:
Hrm. Coffee that tastes like coffee. Would that be Kenyan, Vietnamese, Arabica, or one of the thousand variations of coffee that taste very, very differently. Hot dogs that taste like pork? Yuck. Gimme beef hotdogs any day of the week. Or goat. Goat hotdogs are actually surprisingly good.

Thing is, your better is my worse. You want Roddenberry era Star Trek? Blech. First three seasons of TNG suck. And suck badly. TNG didn't get good until they ejected Roddenberry. But, if you want "classic" if that's the word, Star Trek, you've got several hundred hours of watching. Why can't I get several hundred hours of what I want to watch?

Why does "quality" mean, "things [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] likes"? I liked the first season. I liked the darker aspects. I liked that they were telling Trek stories that weren't sanitized pablum where Star Fleet is always on the side of angels. We've had decades of that. Howzabout a bit more depth of story telling where no one is always the white hats?

Your version of quality is anything but. It's a solid show, set in a believable universe with a pretty decent storyline. "Oh, but, it's not living up to thirty year old canon of Episode 86 of whateverdahell Star Trek is the "good" Star Trek because I happen to like it". It's ludicrous.

If you don't like something, great. You don't like it. But, punishing yourself by spending, well, now presuming you watched season 1 and season 2, twenty some hours watching something you don't like seems really, really strange. I will never understand fans who seem to feel they have ownership over a property. It's just mind blowing the self entitlement that fans profess.

It's because people get emotionally invested in something and franchises have a certain feel. I like D&D and Star Wars. TFA and Rebels feel like Star Wars TLJ didn't. One edition of D&D didn't do it for me.

I'm not a massive Trekkie but enjoyed the older movies, early DS9 and some of TOS.

DS9 for example it's different than TOS and TNG but is still feels like Trek. STD big problem is mostly the feel and the characters.

Change is only bad if you lose the old fans and fail to get new ones. Juries still out on STD but 3 series of trek had 7 seasons each.

Similar things happen with bands eventually they make a dud album.

Hussar · Mar 20, 2019

Zardnaar said:
It's because people get emotional ly invested in something and franchises have a certain feel. I like D&D and Star Wars. TFA and Rebels feel like Star Wars TLJ didn't.

I'm not a massive Trekkie but enjoyed the older movies, early DS9 and some of TOS.

DS9 for example it's different than TOS and TNG but is still feels like Trek. STD big problem is mostly the feel and the characters.

Change is only bad if you lose the old fans and fail to get new ones. Juries still out on STD but 3 series of trek had 7 seasons each.

The problem is, "that certain feel" is far more in the mind of the fan than in anything real in the show. You can point to all sorts of elements that aren't part of the "feel", but, apparently, we're not supposed to look at those things. We're only supposed to like the same things and we're all supposed to keep liking the same things so the franchise can keep pumping out the same thing over and over and over again so it doesn't lose the old "fans".

Good grief.

Look, I'm a HUGE theater fan. Love it to pieces. I've seen Romeo and Juliet done a dozen different ways from traditional all the way to street theater featuring classic hot rods instead of swords. The idea that we have to keep doing the same thing over and over and over just so we can please the "old guard" is baffling to me.

You mentioned The Expanse. Fantastic show. But, let's not forget, we're only three seasons in. Now, imagine the Expanse universe has hundreds of hours of shows under its belt. (heh, no pun intended) Do you really want to keep watching an Expanse that is STILL dealing with the same politics as in Season 1?

It's like those American dramas that just keep going and going and going, like the X Files. They can never actually resolve anything because that would mean that the show would actually have to do something new. No thanks. I have zero interest in those kinds of shows anymore. Gimme solid, self contained stories any day of the week.

Zardnaar · Mar 20, 2019

Hussar said:
The problem is, "that certain feel" is far more in the mind of the fan than in anything real in the show. You can point to all sorts of elements that aren't part of the "feel", but, apparently, we're not supposed to look at those things. We're only supposed to like the same things and we're all supposed to keep liking the same things so the franchise can keep pumping out the same thing over and over and over again so it doesn't lose the old "fans".

Good grief.

Look, I'm a HUGE theater fan. Love it to pieces. I've seen Romeo and Juliet done a dozen different ways from traditional all the way to street theater featuring classic hot rods instead of swords. The idea that we have to keep doing the same thing over and over and over just so we can please the "old guard" is baffling to me.

You mentioned The Expanse. Fantastic show. But, let's not forget, we're only three seasons in. Now, imagine the Expanse universe has hundreds of hours of shows under its belt. (heh, no pun intended) Do you really want to keep watching an Expanse that is STILL dealing with the same politics as in Season 1?

It's like those American dramas that just keep going and going and going, like the X Files. They can never actually resolve anything because that would mean that the show would actually have to do something new. No thanks. I have zero interest in those kinds of shows anymore. Gimme solid, self contained stories any day of the week.

Its hard, D&D kinda has the same problem as you have certain expectations.

I'll use Star Wars as an example as I know the franchise a lot better than say Star Trek. I' deeper into DS9 now than what I watched back in the day but still don't know enough on Trek overall.

With any show I need to like the characters. or hate them if they are a villain. The franchise needs to pay attention to whatever made the franchise interesting to watch in the 1st place. With Star Wars a lot of it is the force, good vs evil, space battles, etc. TFA for example was a bit to formulaic but after the prequals I can understand them playing it safe. TLJ rolls around and its like they didn't pay attention to TFA or the originals. The Darkside is the quick and easy path, or you just be Rey its even quicker. Finn can't pilot in TFA, a few hours or days later in TLJ he can things like that.

So you don't need Jedi/Sith in everything Star Wars. It helps but you have a lot of room to play with and a lot of stories to tell. They also have plenty of example from the old Legends that didn't work. They could do a game of thrones type political drama set in the Star Wars Universe, they cold go back in the ancient past and have the Jedi and Sith go at it in numbers. They could do a war is hell type show a'la Tour of Duty or something focusing on pilots a'la Top Gun/Rogue Squadron. I would like them to get away from bigger and better super weapons, a new darksider, more powerful ships its really just rehashed 90's storylines of the week, its also what made Thrwan so compelling as a character (compelling enough to bring back in the new canon).

The Skywalkers and Palpatine don't have to be the most powerful force users ever but if you top them you need a good story, if its set in the past why is that force user not more famous? Basically internal consistency in that franchises universe. A decent amount of world building.

In the Expanse for example they have opened up new parts of the galaxy so they can leave the Sol system. That is a logical progression, see how it plays out.

I can use Stargate as another example. SG1 lays down the ground work. Atlantis kinda similar but they are in another Galaxy. In universe they went from a small team to an ensemble cast with no other Alien species and they are stuck in space a LOOOOONG way from home. Didn't really feel like the 1st two Stargates, there was no metaplot I could tell/care about established early on (episode 1 in SG1 and SG:A). And I didn't care about any of the characters so I stopped watching during season 2 and then the show got cancelled as I was not the only one.