GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8--Final Run-- Part 6---THE END

Zardnaar · May 21, 2019

A lot if that was due to the reformation, which caused problems elsewhere with different government systems.
Every government system seems to have problems, Democracy hasn't been around that long either and has issues.
Seems to be more of a human thing.

Derren · May 21, 2019

Zardnaar said:
A lot if that was due to the reformation, which caused problems elsewhere with different government systems.
Every government system seems to have problems, Democracy hasn't been around that long either and has issues.
Seems to be more of a human thing.

Not really. There were a lot of wars between the individual princes even before the reformation.

Zardnaar · May 21, 2019

There's lots of wars anytime I don't think government forms mitigate that. Might be getting a bit close to the no politic thing thing though.

Humans are good at being cruel to each other.

Derren · May 21, 2019

Zardnaar said:
There's lots of wars anytime I don't think government forms mitigate that. Might be getting a bit close to the no politic thing thing though.

Humans are good at being cruel to each other.

Yes, but internal wars are something different.
France with its centralism never had that much of internal strife as the HRE had. And as the goal of the kingdoms in GoT was to prevent further conflicts between the houses, choosing an elective succession is the worst possible idea as the HRE shows.

Zardnaar · May 21, 2019

Derren said:
Yes, but internal wars are something different.
France with its centralism never had that much of internal strife as the HRE had. And as the goal of the kingdoms in GoT was to prevent further conflicts between the houses, choosing an elective succession is the worst possible idea as the HRE shows.

HRE had lots if religious strife and different cultures. Westeros only really has one plus Dorne. The 7 is also the default faith for most of Westeros with a little old God's in the north.

France had big problems with the reformation and the decentralized nobles.

Derren · May 21, 2019

Zardnaar said:
HRE had lots if religious strife and different cultures. Westeros only really has one plus Dorne. The 7 is also the default faith for most of Westeros with a little old God's in the north.

France had big problems with the reformation and the decentralized nobles.

Again, you ignore all the wars inside the HRE before the reformation and there were a lot of them. Without a strong emperor, and the electors did the best to elect someone weak, the princes inside the HRE could do as they please, including waging war against each other, which they did often because of matters of territory or succession. Religion only later became just another reason to wage war but was hardly the only one.

Zardnaar · May 21, 2019

Derren said:
Again, you ignore all the wars inside the HRE before the reformation and there were a lot of them. Without a strong emperor, and the electors did the best to elect someone weak, the princes inside the HRE could do as they please, including waging war against each other, which they did often because of matters of territory or succession. Religion only later became just another reason to wage war but was hardly the only one.

I'm not ignoring it up there were other wars elsewhere . Look at the 20th century with entirely different forms of government. Or the War if the Roses which GoT is based on. You're going to have wars regardless.

Derren · May 21, 2019

Zardnaar said:
I'm not ignoring it up there were other wars elsewhere . Look at the 20th century with entirely different forms of government. Or the War if the Roses which GoT is based on. You're going to have wars regardless.

Okay, I give up. You are obviously not able to see a difference between the many internal wars inside the HRE, including before the reformation, and the, compared to that, rather peaceful live in France (at least as internal wars are concerned) and how an elective government system which lead to an nearly impotent emperor who was unable to check the power of his subjects played into that.

Zardnaar · May 22, 2019

Can you give me a timeframe? France was not unified at one point and they had the hugenots and that crusade I'll have to look up. Are you meaning France between the Hundred Years War and reformation or post 30 Years War?

Westeros also lacks a lot of things causing that conflict. War of the 5 Kings was political for the most part.

Mercurius · May 22, 2019

MarkB said:
And these days people have genre expectations based upon tropes established in Game of Thrones. I wonder whether he considers that a success or an irony. Did he break the wheel, or merely forge some new spokes?

Maybe he broke the "childhood wheel" and forged "adolescent spokes." But yeah, it is a new wheel of sorts. I think this is true of "grimdark" (and GRRMdark) stuff in general: it isn't as edgy or rebellious as it thinks it is, or perhaps as it once was when it was rebellious against "father conventions."