D&D 5E Double Dash

Ovinomancer · Jul 18, 2019

Double post

doctorbadwolf · Jul 18, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
My design problem: rogues get to run fast while fighters don't.

Design constraints: minimum intrusion

Your solution: add concrete sub-system for using athletics to run faster. Because rogues will now run even faster because expertise (lacking in fighters), add and balance change to class progression to add limited expertise choice to all classes so they can choose to offset rogue run fast options.

Result: rogues still run faster because the original issue is untouched and all fixes also apply to rogues. Game much more complicated and further from baseline.

My solution (if I were inclined): you can't dash twice.

Why shouldn’t rogues be faster than fighters?

Also my solution is to make the base speed ability the same for all characters, but someone with extra running features should be faster. And it’s not even complicated. It’s literally “you can use athletics to increase speed. You have advantage if you have a feature that allows you to dash as a bonus action.” It’s just a reasonable extrapolation or what the rules already present.

Esker · Jul 18, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
So thematic it never existed before, isn't nentioned in the fluff, and disappears immediately in the chase mechanics?

Sure. Meanwhile, fighters are powerful athletes that are handily outrun by scrawny rogues, who, weirdly, aren't just half again faster but also better athletes.

They're only better athletes if they have expertise in athletics, and even then are probably still not better until fairly high levels due to starting with a -3 or -4 deficit in their strength score for typical builds, which expertise doesn't overcome until level 9 or 13. And even then, they're only better athletes for things that fall under the purview of the athletics skill (so, climbing, and grappling, mostly -- there's no reference to athletics for running in the rules, and even jumping depends heavily on the strength score itself). Much of what we normally refer to as athleticism IRL, particularly the things we tend to think fighters are going to be good at, just falls under straight STR or CON in the game.

And they're only half again faster in short bursts: as soon as it becomes a chase situation, they will only have the edge for the first 18 seconds or so, tops, after which the fighter (who probably has better CON, will start to catch up).

And in combat, where yes, they could theoretically double dash every round, how often do you end up wanting to double dash even twice in a row outside a chase?

This whole thread just feels like an attempt to address a nonexistent problem. Like, just let rogues have their things, man! Fighters are better at putting out and taking hurt (which weigh heavily in D&D); rogues are better at maneuvering, avoiding getting hurt, and utility.

Ovinomancer · Jul 18, 2019

Esker said:
They're only better athletes if they have expertise in athletics, and even then are probably still not better until fairly high levels due to starting with a -3 or -4 deficit in their strength score for typical builds, which expertise doesn't overcome until level 9 or 13. And even then, they're only better athletes for things that fall under the purview of the athletics skill (so, climbing, and grappling, mostly -- there's no reference to athletics for running in the rules, and even jumping depends heavily on the strength score itself). Much of what we normally refer to as athleticism IRL, particularly the things we tend to think fighters are going to be good at, just falls under straight STR or CON in the game.

And they're only half again faster in short bursts: as soon as it becomes a chase situation, they will only have the edge for the first 18 seconds or so, tops, after which the fighter (who probably has better CON, will start to catch up).

And in combat, where yes, they could theoretically double dash every round, how often do you end up wanting to double dash even twice in a row outside a chase?

This whole thread just feels like an attempt to address a nonexistent problem. Like, just let rogues have their things, man! Fighters are better at putting out and taking hurt (which weigh heavily in D&D); rogues are better at maneuvering, avoiding getting hurt, and utility.

Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.

And the bit where it drops out if you go to chase or overland movement rules just underlines it's a mechanical artifact. I dislike mechanical artifacts that result in strains of suspension of disbelief. Note its note "rogue go fast" its the all the time and no one else can go fast. Except monks, where its a resource and very thematic.

Swarmkeeper · Jul 18, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.

Athletic does not necessarily mean "able to run fast". Real life example: Tom Brady, amirite?
Remarkable Athlete just adds 1/2 proficiency to non-proficient STR, DEX, and CON checks and allows the Champion to long jump maybe 4 or 5 feet further. Note that non-proficient DEX checks would be Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth - none of which specifically deal with running speed.

Ovinomancer said:
And the bit where it drops out if you go to chase or overland movement rules just underlines it's a mechanical artifact. I dislike mechanical artifacts that result in strains of suspension of disbelief. Note its note "rogue go fast" its the all the time and no one else can go fast. Except monks, where its a resource and very thematic.

It seems good to note that speed in 6 second rounds of combat does not translate well to speed over hours of overland travel. Usain Bolt would not be the best at a marathon just because he can run 100m super fast. The rogue doesn't have movement advantages over long distances, just short distances.

Upon reviewing the Chase rules (PHB p252), I don't see that bonus actions are specifically prohibited. A PC can cast a spell or attack during a chase, so why not also be able to invoke their Cunning Action or Ki? So maybe bonus actions don't actually "drop off" here? Maybe I'm missing something.

iserith · Jul 18, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
Upon reviewing the Chase rules (PHB p252), I don't see that bonus actions are specifically prohibited. A PC can cast a spell or attack during a chase, so why not also be able to invoke their Cunning Action or Ki? So maybe bonus actions don't actually "drop off" here? Maybe I'm missing something.

I use the Chase Rules a fair amount and I also see nothing against the rules about bonus action Dash under that system. The limiting factor for the rogue is Constitution here and burning out twice as fast. This is really only a problem though if the rogue is the pursuer rather than the quarry since, unless there is no chance of hiding, the rogue has often successfully escaped at the end of the first round of the chase when the quarry gets to attempt to hide for free.

Flamestrike · Jul 18, 2019

What is this anti-rogue week?

Threads bemoaning Dexterity to hit and damgae, TWF and now cunning action Dash.

Not a single thread bemoaning God Wizards or CoDzilla.

Welcome to 5E. I for one welcome our new Rogue and GWM fighter overlords.

The Crimson Binome · Jul 18, 2019

Xeviat said:
Sprinting for 2 rounds would be combat time, not overland travel. I don't like that tactical time is treated differently than not tactical time. I feel like the Round < Minute < Hour conversions are easy enough.

It's not that time, itself, is treated differently. It's that different assumptions apply in each situation. A rogue certainly can run 90 feet in six seconds outside of combat. It's just that we're not really tracking fatigue in combat, since it's over so quickly, while we can't ignore fatigue over long distances.

The rogue who double-dashes every round of combat is probably going to stand around and catch their breath for a few minutes afterward, which we're not looking at, because it's not important. The rogue who double-dashes every round of overland travel will need to rest more frequently than one walking at regular speed, and the net effect makes no difference to their progress over the day.

doctorbadwolf · Jul 18, 2019

Just add strength score to movement for fighters if the problem is fighters being slower than rogues.

Xeviat · Jul 18, 2019

I feel like few are seeing that I'm talking about an interaction between the bonus action dashes and running rules I'm adding. It comes down to "do I want to have to build a sprinter with cunning action, or something like it, or do I want to modify that in some way first".

Is Usain Bolt a Rogue or Monk? Or not, basically.

And yes, I'm approaching this from a very simulationist angle, and 5E doesn't currently do this, but it's part of a larger effort to expand the skill system. It's not meant to be a nerf to the rogue; an expanded skill system is only going to benefit the rogue (and I'm using it to bake in some nerfs to casters, so there).